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Joseph McCarty
12-14-2008, 11:27 PM
I am interested in learning the bagpipes. I looked up confederate bagpipers on Google and couldn't find any. If you could provide ANY information on confederate bagpipers I would greatly appreciate it. Even better, if there was a bagpiper in the 2nd Virginia Infantry or 10th Tennessee infantry then I would be all set to go.
Stonewall brigade pipers... anything. Thanks for the help.
Korey.
2nd Va Volunteers
AKA Valley Corps

Ross L. Lamoreaux
12-15-2008, 12:51 AM
You're probably not finding any information because their isn't much to be found. For the record, I'm a huge fan of the pipes, but bagpipes, by and large, are a reenactorism. Outside some research on the 79th NY and a handful of other individuals and not units, there are few examples of pipes in the field, in camp, or in battle. Like many impressions, equipments, and uniforms, you'll find something if you dig deep enough (like the leopard skin pants in "Echoes of Glory"), but if you want to go with what was most commonly accepted and practiced, the pipes have little place in living history. Lets use a common sense approach. We know that field music consisted of fife and drums. We know that the bugle was used extensively in camp and battle for communication of orders. We know that some regiments had brass bands consisting of multiple brass instruments for entertainment, parade, etc. All of those military endeavors had regulations for the practice of, and transportation of said instruments and personnel. The pipes fall under "personal gear". In a garrison setting, you'll find a multitude of guitars, banjos, harmonicas, and other small instruments, but for practical purposes, how are you going to carry and store bagpipes? They are an instrument that needs alot of upkeep and practice, and they don't travel well in a wagon or military transport. They have persisted, however, at modern reenactments in part to our Celtic roots, the haunting sound, and they just look cool sometimes. I implore you to continue to research but like many aspects of what is done at a reenactment, just because someone is doing it and people like it, doesn't mean that it was a common accepted practice during the war.

Justin Runyon
12-15-2008, 02:15 AM
I shall repeat this broken record for the benefit of those new to the online reenacting world.

In all of my research, and the research of others, there is but one connection to a CW regiment and the usage of bagpipes. Please, however, read on.

The regimental history of the 79th NY mentions the playing of pipes only twice. In both of these instances, the pipers are NOT part of the regiment.

1. The 79th leaves NYC in 1861 led by the pipers of the NY Caledonian Society, a civilian organization that were present only to play, promptly returning home after they parade.

2. Apparently, at some point, a lone civilian piper finds his way to the camp of the 79th. He played so atrociously that the fellas gave him enough grief to prompt his disappearence from camp the very next day!

There is, known to any research that has ever been offered forth, no known military usage of pipes during the War of the Rebellion. Same goes for kilts, as I read the histories, after about 20 July 1861. As always, however, I would love to see anyone step up to the plate and post documented accounts of pipes and kilts in CW regiments.

I encourage you to learn to play, I play myself, but please leave them at home for events.

lincolnsguard
12-15-2008, 07:49 AM
There is no historical documentation of any bagpiper appearing with any Confederate unit on any field or in any parade at any time during the American Civil War.

There is only one instance, and a very short one, of any bagpiper appearing with any Federal unit.

Someone will post information if they have it I'm sure. But, that's what I know from research.

Why would anyone want to put a cat in a bag and crush it to death whilst making other folks listen to it's agonized screams anyway?

2RIV
12-15-2008, 08:51 AM
I prefer to put the cat in the bag with a dog and a rabid raccoon. I think you get better harmonization that way.

sbl
12-15-2008, 09:25 AM
I like the pipes in moderation. I just used to wish that all the pipers who attended CW/WBTS events would have joined my old Rev-War Highlander unit.
There was lone piper playing in the British camp at Yorktown in 1981 and our company "wag" came up to the campfire and said: "That tune is called S*** in the Morning!" (Huh?) "Yeah! I heard everyone saying ' why is he playing the s*** in the morning!'"

Cove Rebel
12-15-2008, 11:42 AM
I like the pipes in moderation. I just used to wish that all the pipers who attended CW/WBTS events would have joined my old Rev-War Highlander unit.
There was lone piper playing in the British camp at Yorktown in 1981 and our company "wag" came up to the campfire and said: "That tune is called S*** in the Morning!" (Huh?) "Yeah! I heard everyone saying ' why is he playing the s*** in the morning!'"

OK you owe me a new keyboard now that I have spit coffee all over it. :D :D

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
12-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Hallo!

"Someone will post information if they have it I'm sure"

Not at all likely. Short of making it up, one cannot really post what does not exist.

;) :)

CHS

(Outside of Reenacting... The pipes are a love/hate thing. And either in the blood or not. If one puts in a CD of tunes and not modern kiltie band blatherskate and "Amazing Grace," and suddenly finds the speedometer at 140 or 160- it's in the blood.) ;) :)

Cove Rebel
12-15-2008, 12:09 PM
(Outside of Reenacting... The pipes are a love/hate thing. And either in the blood or not. If one puts in a CD of tunes and not modern kiltie band blatherskate and "Amazing Grace," and suddenly finds the speedometer at 140 or 160- it's in the blood.) ;) :)

Good advice.

Froehliche Weihnachten!

-CR

Joseph McCarty
12-15-2008, 06:25 PM
I have no documentation except word of mouth from a great great grandfather from a wisconsin regiment. At Antietam, Gettysburg, and Spotslivania, a piper was heard playing from the confederate side during the evening hours. it is true it may only have been recreational...but its something. Thoughts?
\

Regular DOC
12-15-2008, 06:40 PM
Isn't bagpiping in war against the Geneva Convention. I know listening to it could make Bin Laden surrender.:p

Regular DOC
12-15-2008, 06:41 PM
I prefer to put the cat in the bag with a dog and a rabid raccoon. I think you get better harmonization that way.
The Irish gave the Scots the bagpipes you know. The Scots still haven't got the joke.

Joseph McCarty
12-15-2008, 06:42 PM
only ones that don't know how to play...

agrnbrt
12-15-2008, 07:01 PM
The Irish gave the Scots the bagpipes you know. The Scots still haven't got the joke.

Ahhh, No they did not. If you really want to talk about who gave the pipes to the Picts, Dalriadians, Scottis, etc...it would have been the Romans when they came from thier conquests in Africa.
Secondly, Highland pipes (the Scottish pipes that most folks are familiar with) and Uillean (Irish pipes) pipes are totally different types of bag pipes.


WW
(I'm a former Deputy Commissioner for Clan Donald USA/NJ
and my pard is a piper and former Commissioner for CDUSA/NJ. and he will be playing for us at some events this year.)

Regular DOC
12-15-2008, 09:53 PM
Ahhh, No they did not. If you really want to talk about who gave the pipes to the Picts, Dalriadians, Scottis, etc...it would have been the Romans when they came from thier conquests in Africa.
Secondly, Highland pipes (the Scottish pipes that most folks are familiar with) and Uillean (Irish pipes) pipes are totally different types of bag pipes.


WW
(I'm a former Deputy Commissioner for Clan Donald USA/NJ
and my pard is a piper and former Commissioner for CDUSA/NJ. and he will be playing for us at some events this year.)


Sorry old bad joke. Along the lines of my friends and I wondering which drunk Scot bet the other he could make the worst sounding instrument known to man kind.:p

Justin Runyon
12-16-2008, 12:39 AM
Not to stray to far afield, the oldest documented set of pipes comes from Ur, a city in present day Iraq if I recall. Of course, the first documented (insert thing here) is generally from that region.

That being said, Pipes are certainly not a Scottish or Irish invention. They are, in varying forms, from Africa, Scandanavia, the Middle East, etc. Spain has their own pipes, the Gaida, which I was able to hear played more than once while I was there in 2001. Any pipe lovers out there can have a copy of the Gaida CD I picked up while there, just drop me a line.

What does Spanish piping have to do with the Civil War you ask...about as much as any other set of pipes.:D

Robert A Mosher
12-16-2008, 06:32 AM
Not to stray to far afield, the oldest documented set of pipes comes from Ur, a city in present day Iraq if I recall. Of course, the first documented (insert thing here) is generally from that region.

That being said, Pipes are certainly not a Scottish or Irish invention. They are, in varying forms, from Africa, Scandanavia, the Middle East, etc. Spain has their own pipes, the Gaida, which I was able to hear played more than once while I was there in 2001. Any pipe lovers out there can have a copy of the Gaida CD I picked up while there, just drop me a line.

What does Spanish piping have to do with the Civil War you ask...about as much as any other set of pipes.:D

There is a Celtic connection to be found that also links Spain, Ireland, Britain, and France - and their traces can be found even further east if you examine the Romans' own accounts of encountering them. WHile they may not have invented the pipes, they can be found to have helped spread them around Europe.

Robert A. Mosher

(And boy, what I might give to hear a piper play "Flowers of the Forest" instead of "Amazing rGrace" at a memorial service - of course, that could be a choice made by the families and not a choice of the piper.")

GaWildcat
12-16-2008, 12:23 PM
But so tired of the rampant Scotification of the hobby.. If I see another Reb in balmoral or Glengarry, or hear pipes, or see rebs in kilts.....I may have to slit my throat with my own basket hilt!!

Do not get me wrong.. I love the pipes.. but they have their place, and with lack of documentation that place is NOT in the hobby, and NOT in the Confederate Ranks. Me and a pard were sharing a pretty intense moment at GAC, standing behind the wall as prisoners, watching the walking wounded and the discouraged headed back, when it was exploded by a gal troop in the most impossible of outfits playing the pipes... IIRC she was playing Dixie or Bonnie Blue Flag or something... Conversely, when a soldier was playing the pipes in Iraq one morning, as we went to chow across from the pad he was on.... the sound was beautiful...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
12-16-2008, 12:35 PM
Hallo!

You left out Germany...

What we think now as "Celtic" is where they eventually ended up. The initial "Celtic" culture was based in what is now Germany and Austria up until the pressures of the bronze age Great Migration beginning around 1500 BC saw them forced west and north and eventually into France and Spain and lastly into England, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland.

This is also reflected in Norse mythology when the blond Aesir came out of the east and defeated the redheaded Vanir.

Others mileage will vary...

CHS
Fond of the great Celtic burials at Halstatt

sbl
12-16-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm looking at an illustration of a Polish Guard Bagpiper circa 1732 in the War of the Polish Succession. His pipes are in the form of a goat head.

Not to leave out Germany, there were more "Germans" in the CW/WBTS in service than Scots, not forgetting the Scots and "Scotch-Irish" settlers from earlier times who came here when walking around looking Scotish was illegal. I'm guessing the Germans would still be more recently European in culture than the Scots. I'd like to hear a hardy chorus of "Die Gedanken sind frei" coming from a Union camp.
Another factor is that you don't have to learn or speak another language to "play" Scotish.

GaWildcat
12-16-2008, 01:12 PM
I would agree.. more Germans, less Scots. I would also like to hear some German coming out of (especially Union) Camps than all the Balmorals and Glengarrys and Clan Badges I see..not to mention the occasional Kilt here an there (especially in Secesh camps!)

CameronsHighlander
12-16-2008, 02:05 PM
though it was possible for individuals to have played bagpipes for individual regiments according to the Historical record there were no Pipe and Drum bands with either army. The 79th NY left new York in a parade hosted by the New York Caldonian Society but they stayed in New York. There were only two Scottish Regiments that ever served either Army 1 Union (79th NY) and 1 Confederate (the Scots of South Carolina) though an attempt was made to form a Pipe and Drum band for the 79th by Lt. Colonel McKenzie Elliott no Pipe and Drum band exsisted.

I a begging please leave the Scottish wears in camp. If you wear a Kilt on the field you are not Acurate or Authentic the 79th never wore them in battle. Not Bull Run, Antietiam, or Knoxville

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
12-16-2008, 05:18 PM
Hallo!

"Another factor is that you don't have to learn or speak another language to "play" Scotish."

Unless you are a Gaelic-speaking only Scot. ;) :)

CHS
Beam me up, Scottie

5strings
12-16-2008, 05:44 PM
Gentlemen,

I do believe this thread is beginning to stray all over the place. And besides I think the first post has been answered. If we have no further research pertaining to the original question, this thread will be closed.

33rdaladrummer
12-16-2008, 10:52 PM
Delevan Miller, drummer boy of the 2nd New York Heavy Artillery, wrote two books about his memories of the war, Drum Taps in Dixie, and A Drum's Story. The following is from a Drum's Story and describes his recollection of his first reveille in camp.

"Then the drummer boys of General Phil Kearney's Jersey Brigade let us know that they were there as they execute the "Three Camps" and "The Girl I Left Behind Me"...the boys of the 7th Indiana rattle off "John Anderson My Joe," "Yankee Doodle" and "...Old Dan Tucker," while the Bagpipers of the Scottish Highlanders reel off "Annie Laurie" and "The Campbells are Coming, Hurrah, Hurrah."

Since I doubt he really remembered exactly what tunes were played that morning(he also gives 4 other tunes played by two other drum corps), this is not really an actual account of bagpipers playing in the army, but there must have been a reason he included the pipers in his story.

Korey,

Why don't you learn how to play the fife in addition to, or instead of the pipes? I am certain your ancestors would have heard the fife and drum and would appreciate you learning to fife. In Drum Taps in Dixie (which can be downloaded for free at books.google.com by the way), the author describes a G.A.R. gathering where a fife and drum corps "composed of veterans over 70 years of age" played and how "the veterans went wild as they heard again the reveille and tattoo and the old familiar strains of...Rory O'More... The Campbells are Coming...and many other reminders of the old days."

I am willing to bet that your veteran ancestors with Scottish roots would, like the vets described above, also go "wild" if they heard you playing Bonnie Dundee or the Campbells are Coming on a fife, perhaps even moreso than the pipes. I even am willing to bet that most soldiers in the war, even those with Scottish roots, preferred brass bands over fifes and drums, and fifes and drums over pipes.

Will Chappell

Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums
Stonewall Brigade
33rd Alabama

CameronsHighlander
12-17-2008, 03:03 AM
there was no bagpipe with the 79th this is based off the official Unit History.

Where did you find this report? Who wrote it? and when was it written? I'd like to send it to the Unit Historian for verification on the 79th

Regular DOC
12-17-2008, 10:23 AM
there was no bagpipe with the 79th this is based off the official Unit History.

Where did you find this report? Who wrote it? and when was it written? I'd like to send it to the Unit Historian for verification on the 79th

The pipes may have been taken with their colors when they commited mutiny.:p Sorry couldn't resist.

Brian Schwatka
Surgeon
3RD US Regular Infantry Co D+K

33rdaladrummer
12-17-2008, 11:53 AM
there was no bagpipe with the 79th this is based off the official Unit History.

Where did you find this report? Who wrote it? and when was it written? I'd like to send it to the Unit Historian for verification on the 79th

Miller, Delavan S. A Drum's Story, and Other Tales. Watertown, NY: Hungerford- Holbrook, 1909.

George Carroll (www.ropedrum.com) sells reprints.

I was lucky enough to find a first edition copy signed by Delevan Miller. I got it off ebay for a song.

Drums Taps in Dixie is an autobiography, while A Drum's Story seems to have been embellished more.

CameronsHighlander
12-17-2008, 12:05 PM
thanks 33rdaladrumer.. I'm going to pass this along to the historian

GaWildcat
12-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Sounds like a pipe dream to me:rolleyes:

Sorry coulnd't resist.... guess Ill go back in my corner now

33rdaladrummer
12-17-2008, 01:36 PM
Sounds like a pipe dream to me:rolleyes:

Sorry coulnd't resist.... guess Ill go back in my corner now

Yes, even if there really was a regiment whose bagpipers played a couple of tunes for reveille one morning, there is not much evidence to support having pipers at any reenactment. Isn't our hobby supposed to be about representing what the typical soldier would have experienced? To say that bagpipers are overrepresented is more than an understatement. What our hobby really needs on the music side are more competent drummers and fifers demonstrating how music regulated the soldier's day from reveille in the morning through tattoo at night.

"We have received several interesting letters from teachers in the
army. We have one before us from a Christian teacher, now a
Christian soldier, from which we will make a few extracts. In speaking
of the occupation of the time of the soldiers he gives the following
programme of daily duties : " We are called up by reveille and
sent to bed by tattoo. The beat of the drum calls us to all our duties,
as follows : —
At 6.30 A. M., Reveille and roll-call.
At 6.45 A. M., Breakfast call.
At 7 A. M., Police call, when the streets, &c., are swept.
At 7.15 A. M., Surgeon's call, — when the sick go to the doctor. (
This seems to be reversing our custom. We think it will prove
beneficial in some cases. ED.)
At 8 A. M., Battallion drill.
At 10 A. M., First call for guard mounting.
At 10.30 A. M., Guard mounting.
At 11 A. M., Drill on the fort guns.
At 12 M., First Sergeant's call.
At 12.30 P. M., Dinner call. (We presume this is promptly
regarded.)
At 2 P. M., Company and Artillery drill.
At 4 P. M., First call for dress parade.
At 4.30 P. M., Dress parade.
At 5 P. M., Supper.
At 8.30 P. M., Tattoo and roll-call.
At 9.50 P. M., Taps, — when all the lights in camp are to be extinguished"

Connecticut Common School Journal - Page 71
by Connecticut Board of Commissioners of Common Schools - 1862

Can you really imagine bagpipers in any regiment wailing out "Peas Upon a Trencher" and "Roast Beef"? The main purpose of the drum corps (fifers and drummers) was to provide the duty calls while brass bands provided entertainment and boosted morale (as could the drum corps). Not sure what purpose bagpipers would have served...

CameronsHighlander
12-17-2008, 07:52 PM
Id settle for a bugler who can play Taps without the foul notes.

tompritchett
12-17-2008, 10:07 PM
Not sure what purpose bagpipers would have served...

Target practice! :twisted:

CameronsHighlander
12-18-2008, 05:56 PM
Here is an Answer in Part... Sent in Email to me by 1st Sgt Dewey Beard 79th NY

I've seen this type of thing before. I do have one of the books you mentioned. It's not the only book written from Washington that mentions pipers. But, I wonder how much of that was from memory of the writer, or if Robertson's band had a member who could imitate bagpipes on a saxhorn? Lieutenant Col Samuel Elliott wrote in his book The Highland Brigade written in 1861 when he returned from the Battle of Bull Run, Elliott wrote that he was going to return to New York to get a piper for the regiment and that he may have to go to Canada to get one, page 16. Why would he write that he needed to get a piper for the regiment if they already had one? And William Todd did mention that the one piper from Michigan that followed the regiment around for a few months in 1863 was a new "institution" page 303. Why would Todd refer to the piper as a "new institution" if they already had a piper. Furthermore, Todd says he was terrible, and if they had a piper this person wouldn't be allowed to play. The two books I've seen that referenced a piper in Washington didn't actually see a piper, but heard what sounded like a piper, and both of these books were written by folks years after the fact and these writers were both kids at the time. Just ask yourself how hard would it have been for Robertson's band to emulate the sound of the pipes on their instruments given the fact they knew the repertoire and were all professionals. I will go with the writings of the men of the unit as the authority on this, and until further evidence from a primary source from the regiment or credible witness shows up I am a little skeptical of the fancies of other authors

As for the Confeds well until a book appears written by a mamber of the unit go with no Bag Pipers

Silas
12-21-2008, 12:09 AM
http://www.archive.org/stream/drumsstoryothert00mill/drumsstoryothert00mill_djvu.txt

The reference from the book doesn't seem right. I suppose it's possible to have found Kearney's Brigade, Meagher's Brigade and the 2d NY Heavies in the same place. (Per Dyer's, the Heavies did service during 2d Bull Run.) A look at Dyer's plus an outline of each entity's service might show a common place. Not having a dog in the fight, I'm not too interested in spending time on checking the recollection made many years after the war. Maybe someone who wants to get that bagpipe as accepted in the field as jaguar pants might want to do some research on this.

But then again, maybe not.

GaWildcat
12-21-2008, 07:09 AM
Hey Silas,

How about getting the bagpipe on the field WITH a Jaguar skin bag cover.. there we go!

I hope, one day, maybe, we can get past all the Scots stuff that is permeating the farb and mainstream side of the hobby... dear gracious me, just browsing around out there I cant count the number of mainstream vendors who stock Glens and Balmorals... that and Irish Harp badges but that is a different rant.

redleggeddevil
12-21-2008, 08:32 AM
I am without equal in my admiration of all things Scottish. My granny was a MacDonald and I am married to a MacAlastair. I wore a kilt at my wedding and cut the cake with a dirk. I cook a massive Robert Burns' Night Supper each year, complete with haggis and all the attendant viscera. Yet...

I second the call for the de-Scottishization of the hobby. Or, more correctly, the de-faux-Celticization of the hobby. It is a baffling development, but seems to insert its tendrils deeper and deeper every year. It is not just a CW phenomenon, but cuts across all lines of time and space. A Rev War British garrison event I have been attending for years features a (supposedly) period musical program on Friday night. This year featured one group after another doing 19th and 20th century Irish rebel drinking songs and sea chanteys. Huh?

It is all too much, and getting worse by the year. Soon, if the tide doesn't turn, I will have to start telling everyone I am Welsh, about whom no one knows anything. That should keep me safe for a few years, until whole units start showing up wearing leeks in their miners caps, singing "All Through The Night" and emblazoning their unit colors with a red dragon.

It is just a matter of time.

sbl
12-21-2008, 09:19 AM
Bobby,

Maybe being German, or from a German state (it's pre-1871 of course) will be kewl someday. Of course the phony accents will be worse. ;) Doing a northern or southern "regular white guy" is easy with a few vocabulary changes and a scanning of popular culture from the times.

sbl
12-21-2008, 09:30 AM
I like the Scottish culture too. Even the humour about it is positive in a way like Asians being good with math. Most Scottish characters in popular culture are funny but good people; Groundskeeper Willy on The Simpsons, Scotty on the Enterprise, Muriel Bagge on Courage the Cowardly Dog. Patrick Stewart as the Scottish psychoanalysis on SNL.

But like the "Irish Impression" it's done waaaay too much by some folks with only a superficial knowledge of the culture and at the wrong occasion.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
12-21-2008, 11:29 AM
Hallo!

I have it on good authority that...

Leprechuans do not really eat "Lucky Charms" cereal.

But I could be wrong.

:)

CHS
Still cringing from the Lucky Charms leprechuan at Antietam 135 talking to a group of spectators about the six inch long Sharps bullet that could hit a target 1800 yards away Mess

CameronsHighlander
12-22-2008, 12:57 AM
whats sad is there was a very low number of Scotts in the Civil War the 79th was barely 50% Scottish, The remainder was mostly Irish and a mix of many other Nationalities

sbl
12-22-2008, 07:40 AM
Why is that sad?

The 39th NY wasn't all Italian.

CameronsHighlander
12-22-2008, 10:50 AM
What I meant was the number of people who wear Scottish Items do not compare to the number haing served.. Even in the Regiment(s) that was (were) Scottish based. (Ok lets stop Hyjacking this thread)

sbl
12-22-2008, 11:34 AM
What I meant was the number of people who wear Scottish Items do not compare to the number haing served.. Even in the Regiment(s) that was (were) Scottish based. (Ok lets stop Hyjacking this thread)

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8035/lightenupuk8.gif

Brandon Ledvina
01-03-2009, 12:42 PM
As to the original question. I reenact the 10th Tennessee and have done a lot of research on the unit. I even own a original document form the regiment. As far as I know they never had a piper in the unit. If, and a big IF, someone brought one for recreation I’m sure the cumbersome instrument wouldn’t have lasted long and certainly not past Donelson where they were taken prisoner.

As far as other units, I do not know of any that would have used them in a regimental band.

Hope this helps.

Brandon

Buffalo Soldier Bugler
01-05-2009, 05:44 PM
I just wanted to see if my new avatar would display

5strings
01-05-2009, 10:06 PM
I just wanted to see if my new avatar would display

Richard,

It looks like you are new here and it is a good avatar, so I will just leave it here.

Enjoy the forums!

Buffalo Soldier Bugler
01-07-2009, 06:22 PM
Id settle for a bugler who can play Taps without the foul notes.

I do Taps - in addition to most US Army CW & Indians Wars Period bugle calls. I recently returned to the violin - the instrument of my youth and am locating period fiddle & violin music etc

"...foul notes..." is subjective...

tarheel_fifer
03-11-2009, 11:20 PM
This is the first time I've been on this site in a very long time, but I just stumbled upon this link and had to comment. . .

BRAVO to all of you guys that have posted the reality that there is absolutely NO documentation of bagpipes besides the very few New York reg. used during the Civil War.

Sorry, Joseph, but you would be just as authentic going out onto the field with an electric bass guitar or a grand piano.

I enjoy bagpipes IN THEIR PROPER PLACE, and was fortunate enough to see the famed Blackwatch guards perform at Edinburgh Castle several years ago, but at Civil War events they are just a bloody nuisance! Did anyone else have to endure that piper at the 145th Gettysburg last summer at 1:30 in the morning???? Ugghhh! Someone finally shouted out loudly so that it could be heard for a clear mile away, "SHUT DA F&*$ UP!!!"

I am in no way a "stitch nazi" reenactor, but there are just some things that cannot be ignored and the use of bagpipes at Civil War events is as hokey as it gets.

My 2 cents worth. . .

David Rotan
Carolina Fifes & Drums

agrnbrt
03-21-2009, 07:48 AM
BRAVO to all of you guys that have posted the reality that there is absolutely NO documentation of bagpipes besides the very few New York reg. used during the Civil War... but there are just some things that cannot be ignored and the use of bagpipes at Civil War events is as hokey as it gets.
My 2 cents worth. . .
David Rotan
Carolina Fifes & Drums

Tarheel & all the rest. I am VERY disapointed (by you most Tarheel as a Carolinian). How about you do some research on the Company F Union Light Infantry of the 17th South Carolina Regt. They were a militia unit orginiazed in 1807 by Scottich residents of Charleston.
Look at the pic I have included. They wore that uniform (Black Watch (Campbell dark) tartan trews & fly with the feathered bonnet with red hackle) right up and into the first battle of Manasas. I have a friend in Leamington, England (the Confederate Capitol of the UK) who portrays these boys. If any of you think that the pipes weren't with this unit you are fools. North & South Carolina, Georgia & Virginia (to include the yankee made state of west virginia) all had HEAVY Scots/Irish populations.

GaWildcat
03-21-2009, 08:41 AM
Hmmm keep finding them as The Carolina Rifles, from York County, Commanded by Captains William S. Moore, William B. Wilson,& Eli P. Moore.

I do not doubt the existance of the the unit, however, a uniform is not solid evidence of the presence of bagpipes. As was noted earlier, the 79th NY was a Scot inspired unit, but no pipes or pipers were on their roster, the pipes used to march them out of the city were from the Caledonian Club of NYC. I have yet to see any documentation of bagpipes in any Confederate organization during the war.

Yes, I agree that NC, SC, GA, and parts of VA had heavy Scots populations, many of those were several times removed from the Auld Country, and did'nt necessarily retain all the traditions of the past. Just because there is a population of Scots descent, does not mean there were pipers available.

One more thing, why must you resort to namecalling ("fools")? Hmm, I've met a lot of Green Beenies in my time (SGT MAJ Mom was once Supply Sgt to HHC/3/12 SFG(A), and most of them didnt resort to such unprofessionalism, except among themselves.

De Oppresso Liber

FloridaConfederate
03-21-2009, 08:58 AM
Is that a plate from an Osprey Book ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Fools Rush In Mess

GaWildcat
03-21-2009, 09:06 AM
Is that a plate from an Osprey Book ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Fools Rush In Mess


Hey Chris, I do believe you are correct on that one..

Micah Trent
03-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Tarheel & all the rest. I am VERY disapointed (by you most Tarheel as a Carolinian). How about you do some research on the Company F Union Light Infantry of the 17th South Carolina Regt. They were a militia unit orginiazed in 1807 by Scottich residents of Charleston.
Look at the pic I have included. They wore that uniform (Black Watch (Campbell dark) tartan trews & fly with the feathered bonnet with red hackle) right up and into the first battle of Manasas. I have a friend in Leamington, England (the Confederate Capitol of the UK) who portrays these boys. If any of you think that the pipes weren't with this unit you are fools. North & South Carolina, Georgia & Virginia (to include the yankee made state of west virginia) all had HEAVY Scots/Irish populations.

Maybe in 1807 they had them, but it is hard to base the fact that they had them through a painting. Like many paintings made, they are romantisized. Though there may have been a heay scott/irish popoulation, it still does not prove the use of pipes in the rank and file as already mentioned.
First hand accounts and actual pictures can speak volumes. Paintings, well, you just can stand alone on. Just my thoughts.

tarheel_fifer
04-13-2009, 09:15 PM
Um. . . I'm sorry, agrnbrt, I thought this forum thread was about whether or not there were Confederate BAGPIPERS. I'm sorry to say a PAINTING of a soldier carrying a gun and dressed in Scottish garb does not prove there were bagpipes used by his unit.

sbl
04-13-2009, 11:33 PM
That had 'em in the Franco-Prussian War

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1629896&t=w

Fifer26
04-17-2009, 10:15 PM
Tarheel & all the rest. I am VERY disapointed (by you most Tarheel as a Carolinian). How about you do some research on the Company F Union Light Infantry of the 17th South Carolina Regt. They were a militia unit orginiazed in 1807 by Scottich residents of Charleston.
Look at the pic I have included. They wore that uniform (Black Watch (Campbell dark) tartan trews & fly with the feathered bonnet with red hackle) right up and into the first battle of Manasas. I have a friend in Leamington, England (the Confederate Capitol of the UK) who portrays these boys. If any of you think that the pipes weren't with this unit you are fools.

Getting back to the unit that agrnbrt referred to, the Union Light Infantry (ironic name, huh?) did have a bagpiper before the war. "The Company attracted much attention as, preceded by the pipes, it marched up Meeting-street."--Charleston Mercury, 23 Feb. 1860. But there is nary a mention of the pipes after secession. This company was in the 17th S.C. Militia, then went into the Charleston Battalion (1st Bn. S.C. Vol. Inf.) which merged into the 27th S.C. in 1863. Their history is well covered in the book Charlestonians in War: The Charleston Battalion by W. Chris Phelps (2004). The dress uniform picture from Ron Field's Osprey book is accurate, but they had a service uniform without tartan or feathers even before the war began. Not only did they not wear full dress at First Manassas, they didn't even leave the Charleston area until 1864.

Bill Bynum
26th NCT

Busterbuttonboy
04-19-2009, 08:14 PM
So...
Why hasnt the thread been closed yet?
Drew Gruber

33rdaladrummer
04-25-2009, 06:02 PM
Now if you thought the occasional annoyance of bagpipers at a reenactment was bad...

Ran across a video on youtube of the VMI band. After the brass band marches out I see bagpipers in cadet grey! I could not believe my eyes! I started googling to see if VMI really had a pipe band and I literally started feeling sick to my stomach.

http://www.vmi.edu/show.aspx?tid=36565&id=282

"Throughout History, the Bagpipe has been used as an instrument of war; its sound can inspire troops into battle while simultaneously instilling fear into the hearts the enemy. The VMI Pipe Band, directed by Capt. Burt Mitchell keeps this tradition alive, now as a ceremonial unit, instilling pride in the Corps of Cadets as a regular feature of on post parades and as musical ambassadors throughout the Eastern United States through concerts, parades, ceremonies and festivals."

Tradition? What tradition?

Back in the old days instead of police and firemen having pipe bands, they had fife and drum corps. And this even carried on into the 20th century. I cannot understand how bagpipes took things over. They've even highjacked VMI.

Someone really ought to start a fife and drum corps at VMI. All they need is half a dozen 1860s style unmuffled drums with calfskin heads and a few good fifers. But I suppose this is asking too much because there are even reenactors who would rather have bagpipes even though they are not a traditional American instrument (no, not even in North Carolina).

For every bagpipe in North Carolina in 1861 there were probably at least 1000 fifes. There were even the Scotch fife and drum duty calls that dated back to at least the 18th century that were used in the British and American armies. Ever heard the Slow Scotch Reveille? Well, it's in just about every fife and drum manual published during the 1860s and in Scott's, Gilham's, and Casey's tactics. Any well-trained fifer would play that tune every morning. What do think the average soldier would recall waking up to every morning? Amazing Grace on the bagpipe?

Will Chappell
Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums

sbl
04-25-2009, 06:33 PM
I went to The Citadel for about 2 weeks in 1970. I think they had pipes in their band then. They do now.

http://www.citadel.edu/pao/band/regimental_band.shtml

33rdaladrummer
04-25-2009, 06:43 PM
I like their website much better.

"The sounds of bagpipes were first heard at The Citadel in 1955."

Just pulled this up on google books:

THE CITADEL.

Here we see no upright cadets as in days of yore in their swallow-tailed gray coats, or their brown-linen roundabouts, being drilled to march to the monotonous music of fife and drum, or strutting near the fence to stare at and be admired by the passing fair ones. No Palmetto flag now asserts the dominion of South Carolina over the imitation fortress. The gay cadets are disbanded veterans, or occupy soldiers' graves, and the flag is folded among the mementoes of the past. But the green looks even better than in the olden time, and the grim barracks as ever frown down upon it. The Citadel is a long, low, yellow, rough-east building, with two wings, each nearly as large as the main building. The interior of the western wing has been destroyed by fire since the war, but the injuries are not visible at a distance.

"A sketch of Charleston"
from Premium List of the South Carolina Institute Incorporated in 1850
Published by Walker, Evans & Cogswell, 1870

sbl
04-25-2009, 07:48 PM
The old Citadel is a hotel now.

http://www.friedgreentours.com/citadel%20lobby.jpg

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-25-2009, 10:06 PM
Is that the "old Citadel" or Arsenal Academy? There were two different military academies in Charleston prior to the war.

josephkorber
04-26-2009, 04:58 AM
Any well-trained fifer would play that tune every morning. What do think the average soldier would recall waking up to every morning? Amazing Grace on the bagpipe?

Will Chappell
Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums

take a deep breath Will, you 're getting excited
and if a piper were playing reveille, it would probably be Johnny Cope, not amazing grace..but anyway...going to a civil war event? leave the pipes at home
No pipes at civil war events, no enfields at the highland games..very simple, win win situation
next?

respectfully
joe korber

33rdaladrummer
04-26-2009, 12:10 PM
Joe,

It's funny you mentioned Johnny Cope, a popular bagpipe tune introduced into the fife and drum repertoire by a former Drum Major of Colonial Williamsburg whose background was in pipe bands. He also introduced elements of pipe band drumming, which has more in common with jazz than any historical drum style.

If only there were more pipers/fifers like Joe Korber who did a little reading rather than learning their "history" from popular fife and drum CDs...

But I will rant every once in a while if it does a little to keep historical music from becoming extinct. Even most of the groups who claim to help preserve and accurately recreate it are helping to destroy it, using the excuse of throwing in some anacronistic "crowd pleasers" into their performances.

Will Chappell
Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums

sbl
04-26-2009, 03:29 PM
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens...bagpipes poison everything.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/01/652201/1/58959961.bagpipersinbethlehem.jpg

GaWildcat
04-27-2009, 06:42 AM
Why aint this been locked yet??

sbl
04-27-2009, 09:49 AM
Ross. I'm pretty sure that the Arsenal Academy was the Porter Military academy of which the remaining buildings are part of the Medical University of South Carolina .

http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/charleston/por.htm

The Old Citadel Building is an Embassy Suites....


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/01/56/e4/old-citadel-now-a-hotel.jpg

I "wussed" out of the Citadel in 1970 but finished college in 1975 when my father started speaking to me again. ;)

Hardtack Herring
05-06-2009, 10:34 PM
Sadly this is the all time most popular thread in the music forum.

68 posts to date.

It has been decided many many many years ago that bagpipes have NO place at a Civil War events.

Mods I beg of you.... Lock this thread!

Bagpipers... I beg of you.... Leave the pipes and your kilts at home if you are going to an AMERICAN Civil War event!