Enfield paper cartridges

[Artyman]

We all know the concept of "minnie balls". The concave cone in the base allows the bullet to expand into the rifleing grooves to spin the bullet. The smaller than the bore diameter allows the bullet to easily ram down the barrel in spite of the fouling. Pretty simple stuff.

I looked at an original cartridge that was sent to the Confederates from England. I also found an original example from the Agusta Georgia Arsenal. See the pics:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/60sRefugee/m15425.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/60sRefugee/m18141.jpg

The design of this cartridge required the bullet to be rammed down with the paper still wrapped around the bullet, the paper being waxed to lube the round.

How well did this actually work? My thought is that the blast of the charge would blow the paper off the round leaving the bullet to expand in the bore without the benefit of the grooves. Seeing as the bullet had to be an even smaller diameter to allow for the paper wrap, could the round actually expand the extra diameter if the paper was blown off? Pretty much all the original dug bullets like this I've seen had no rifling marks on them.

I have read that these were a common Confederate bullet/cartridge and that they came ten in a pack, plus a cleaner round plus a tube of 11 or 12 caps. It is also interesting that these bullets were made in a press rather than cast. Did the US or CS cast the bullets or could the press them as well?

Harry

[Georgia Frame]

It worked quite well!

I have done work with Enfield type rounds in live firing. The paper around the bullet was slit vertically with the cut, located at the top edge of where the bullet’s straight side met the rounded section of the nose, to the bottom of the bullet/paper. They either slit it in 3 equal sections, or with only one slit.

Having made live Enfield rounds, and loaded them per originals, I have seen the separate pieces of paper laying smoldering on the ground about 6 feet in front of the muzzle.

Now, I used a different Minnie bullet than the Brit’s, or Confederate Arsenals used. I had to substitute by using a 500gr Lee Minnie Bullet, sized .565”. I wrapped the cartridge as per the way they were originally set up, with the bullet at the bottom, using regular typing paper for the outer/inner cases, and card stock for powder cylinder. I made a green E. & A. Ludlow Birmingham gummed strip label to tie the inner/outer cases together. I dipped the bottom of the cartridge in a beeswax/tallow type lube bought commercially, and then slit the paper around the bullet as done originally. I loaded 60gr of FFg powder in the top, and closed as per originals (See picture of one attached)

Now, the one thing missing is a workable wood plug…the Lee bullet is not set up to take a wood plug, so I did without. Using a 61 Springfield, ArmiSport & Euroarms Enfield repro’s, we shot about 50 of these rounds with no jamming, or seeing the bullet tumbling when fitting the target. The group sizes at 50 yards was not much to brag about, 5”-6” 5-shot groups, but they were fired thru non-regulation rifled barrels. (Originals hade progressive-depth rifling) I may have a chance to try these rounds thru an original Enfield, and compare.

Kevin Dally

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"How well did this actually work? My thought is that the blast of the charge would blow the paper off the round leaving the bullet to expand in the bore without the benefit of the grooves. Seeing as the bullet had to be an even smaller diameter to allow for the paper wrap, could the round actually expand the extra diameter if the paper was blown off? Pretty much all the original dug bullets like this I've seen had no rifling marks on them."

As patch paper or cloth patched round balls, the paper accelerates with the ball down the bore.

The nominal diameter of a Pritchett ball was .568 used in a progressive depth rifliled barrel of .577. In February that was reduced to .550, but shortly thereafer increasded to .567.

It worked well enough to have been the "British system" for years.

Up to a point, the paper is not acting as a patch to impart spin to the undersized ball from the rifling. The hollow base of the bullet expands anyways. (The same as the U.S.'s "Minie" system where the ball is also surrounded by the cartridge paper just not with lubed paper.)
The U.S. nominal diameter for Minies was originally .577 reduced to .574 in a .580 bore.

"I have read that these were a common Confederate bullet/cartridge and that they came ten in a pack, plus a cleaner round plus a tube of 11 or 12 caps. It is also interesting that these bullets were made in a press rather than cast. Did the US or CS cast the bullets or could the press them as well?'

Swedging and "pressing and turning" were the common method for Federal manufacture, and to a lesser extent for the Confederates who often used nose cast bullets.

I am not aware of Confederate cartridge bundles containing Willliams' "clean out" bullet cartridges.

CHS

[Georgia Frame]

Curt is correct, the paper will stay around the bullet as it travels down the barrel, pressed between the rifling and bullet, till the bullet leaves the muzzle. The paper sections then fall away from the bullet, the reason for the slits on the side of the bullet.

When the soldier inverts the cartridge after dumping the powder, the bullet goes in paper and all, up to near the top of the side, where it starts to round off towards the nose. Then the Soldier “breaks off the upper portion of the cartridge, discarding it, and ramming the paper patched bullet down normally onto the charge.

This website shows the earlier version of the Enfield cartridge... http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/cartridge07.htm

Kevin Dally

[flattop32355]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were not the British Enfield bullets smooth sided, having no grooves?

[Georgia Frame]

You are correct, there would be no need for grooves to hold lube. The waxed paper would do that job.

The system must have worked well, because the British fired an Enfield Rifled Musket over a number of years with a set amount of cartridges per day, (no cleaning) with no ill effect on the Rifle Musket.

Kevin Dally

[Artyman]

It's interesting to read that you use the Lee mould. I just bought one over at Fall Creek. A Lee .575 minnie. Cast over 50 bullets today before I tried one for fit. The cast ball is so large it won't enter the bore of my .577 Armi Sport (tried both ends). It mics out at a full 1/32" larger than the bore! I never had that problem with my Lyman minnie mould. Did you run yours through a sizer die? I don't know how I'd get a paper wrap to go in along with the bullet with it being so large.

That being said, the Enfield cartridge design is a real winner. It makes sense. I'd like to use that method when I load mine up next time, presuming I can get a bullet to fit!

I wonder if anyone makes a smooth sided Enfield minnie mould without getting one custom made?

Harry

[tompritchett]

The system must have worked well, because the British fired an Enfield Rifled Musket over a number of years with a set amount of cartridges per day, (no cleaning) with no ill effect on the Rifle Musket.

The minor exception was when the British tried introducing the rounds in the Indian subcontinent. This was the spark that ignited the smoldering native anger and set off the Sepoy rebellion in 1857. Basically the Hindus were convinced that the beef fat was used to wax the cartridges while the Muslims were convinced that pig fat had been used. Supposedly, after the rebellion, the British had a smooth bore version of the Enfield made for issuing to the native troops that avoided these issues with the rounds' lubrication.

[Blair]

Harry,

What is the minimum bore diameter on your Rifle Musket? and how did you get that measurement?
For the American style minnie, your bullet should be at least .001 to .002" of an inch smaller than your minimum bore dia.
The Enfield bullet will have to be smaller by at least twice the tickness of the paper you plan on using.
I don't know of any sourses for the Enfield bullet in the US.
Blair Taylor

[TheQM]

Hallo!

Up to a point, the paper is not acting as a patch to impart spin to the undersized ball from the rifling. The hollow base of the bullet expands anyways. (The same as the U.S.'s "Minie" system where the ball is also surrounded by the cartridge paper just not with lubed paper.)
The U.S. nominal diameter for Minies was originally .577 reduced to .574 in a .580 bore.

Swedging and "pressing and turning" were the common method for Federal manufacture, and to a lesser extent for the Confederates who often used nose cast bullets. CHS

Curt,

As I understand it, the Federal soldier was supposed to remove the Minie Ball from the paper wrapping before loading. This is a quote from the 1856 Ordnance Report: "A slight pressure of the thumb and fore finger forces the ball into the bore clear of all cartridge paper." This makes sense, since the lube was on the lead bullet and not the paper wrapping.

At least one Federal Arsenal, Watervliet, reduced the diameter of their Minies to .570. They actually marked their boxes as "CAL .57".

The Confederates had problems with nose voids in their cast bullets. It's one of the reasons they stopped using the Gardner cartridges in the last year of the War.

[Georgia Frame]

"Did you run yours through a sizer die? I don't know how I'd get a paper wrap to go in along with the bullet with it being so large. "

Harry:

I'm a welder by trade, so I found that a 17/32" drill bit was about the same diameter as the original .568" the Brits chose for the early form of Pritchett Ball ammo. I drilled out a piece of metal rod, polished the inside with the drill bit I bought, and had a machinist turn the outside diameter to match the other Rapine Company sizing dies I have on hand. It's a bit of a squeeze to get the bullet thru the die, but it comes out OK, with no deformity.

What Rifle are you using? The 3 RM's we fired these thru were bored from .578" to .580". We had NO loading problems. The Lee 500gr bullet is often too small for the reproduction bores, to get good accuracy.

It took more than several hours to make 50+ rounds of Enfield type cartridges for us to shoot. I used 4 pieces of paper to form the cartridge... inner wrapper, outer wrapper, Powder cylinder, and the gummed strip label.

As far as smooth sided Enfields to reproduce, I know of no one making them. As long as the paper surrounds the bullet going down the bore, having the groove didn't seem to matter much here; the rifling in original guns was what made a big difference.

Email me at: Kdallyrm@aol.com
I can get you going in making your own.

Kevin Dally

[wmkane]

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/thumbs/BU0906.JPG

I've fired these before at the range and found that they drop down the barrel with little to no help.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_311_313&products_id=13049

[Artyman]

They were so hungry at Valley Forge that they ate their bullets ;). That pig fat would have made them taste better while they were chewing them:D .

Harry

[Artyman]

Blair,
I didn't drive in a plug or anything like that. I used a high quality vernier caliper, opened the "inside" measuring points inside the bore and openend them out until they were tight but could still be rotated in the bore over the lands and such. Then, I took a micrometer and carefully miced the points. Came out to a perfect .577 ! The caliper dial shows an almost perfect 9/16" (about half a tick mark heavy). I repeated the process several times, and again this morning before this post. Now, given, this is the muzzle diameter, seeing as how the points on the caliper can't only reach into the bore about 1"

The bullets vary. They "pass/no pass" through the mic between .578 through .580. Of the 50 I cast, NONE were at .575. They were all over that. One or two could have been forced in, but minnies should fall easily into the bore.

I'm well versed at casting bullets. Been doing it since 1971. I've never had a problem before. However, these are the first minnies I've done. Always used round ball and conicals in the past.

Kevin,
It's a brand new Armi Sport P53 defarbed by James River armory. The mould is a Lee .575 500 gr minnie.

Obviously these bullets need to be sized!

wmkane,
that Dixie bullet looks very much like it! Did you load yours with the paper wrap? I'm driving down to Union City in about two weeks. I'll check them out.

Harry

[Blair]

Harry,
As you know a rifle bore has a max bore dia. from groove to groove and a minimum bore from land to land. The problem is in the odd number of three grove rifling. When you measure the bore with your dial calipers measure from one groove to one land and then subtract .003 from that measurement.
.003 is the average depth of one groove.
Lets say your reading from one grove to one land is .580, subtract .003 from that and you will have a minimum bore dia of .577.
Now to get the bullets to fit and give you ease of loading, subtract at least another .002 from the minimum bore, this will give you a "Bullet" dia. of .575.
This dia. is what I would recommend you size cast bullets to if these are the measurements you come up with.
If you are going to paper patch your bullets, and the paper you are going to use is .005 thick, then you have to start with a bullet that is .010 small than the .575 naked bullet to .565. And if the paper overlaps itself anywhere subtract another .005 from the Bullet dia.
Blair Taylor

[Blair]

Kevin,
The biggest problem with the outside lubbed paper patched bullet was in the lube collecting dust dirt and grit which would be introduced into the bore when the bullet was loaded.
The American minnie ball was groved to carry lube and the paper cartridge protected the lube from this and the paper was intended to be removed. This bullet was disigned at Harpers Ferry by Master Armorer James Burton. He would go to England in the 1850's to help the Brits set up the tooling for interchangeable arms manufacturing which would lead into the making of the 4th Pattern Enfield.
Upon returning to the States He went to work at the newly set up Richmond Armory.
Blair Taylor

[Artyman]

That makes sense. Dixie has a sizer that reduces to .575. That is probably the best for an un patched bullet. I might have to fadricate one like Kevin did. Dixies clamps in a vise. I havn't been able to find an RCBS or other name brand with sizers that large.

Harry

[Blair]

Harry,
RCBS and Lyman make them for their lubber/sizer presses. But that set up can be rather expencive if your setting up to shoot only a couple hundred rounds a year.
The push through type sizer may do what you want. I don't know that I would want to clamp it up in a vice, that might destort the sizing die enough to make your bullets oval in shape. You can make up a wood block that will suport the die. The push through type die become difficut to push the bullet through if the bullet is more than .001" larger than the die.
You can try Lodgewood or S&S Firearm to see what they might have available in the way of the push dies in the size (s) you may need. What dia do your bullets mic out to?
Blair Taylor

[Artyman]

They pass/no pass through the mic from mostly 5.78 through as much as 5.80.

Harry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

The tallow controversy was eliminated in February of 1859 when the British went to pure beeswax.

I assume they still offer it, but years ago I sent a Pritchett ball to Rapine Moulds to have a mold made, and they went ahead and put it on their commercial offerings.

As shared, ideally, (for accuracy) one should shoot for (no pun intended) a .001 or .002 undersized ball unless one wants or needs to go with period tolerances.
But that is a larger discussion as cast bullets will throw slightly different diameter bullets depending upon how worn they are and at what temperature the mold and lead is. And that is further complicated as the Italian repro's over the years have actual barrel inside diameter that can vary as much as .575 all the way to .582 (I have had that range myself). (The British Parker Hale's progressive depth .577 so noted).

At any rate, the Rapine mould is nose cast so the finished ball has the signature flat nose of a mold cast bullet. (Some lads sand or emory board the blunt nose pointed as were the originals.)

Curt

[Blair]

Harry,

That is a lot of variation in bullet diameters. The heat of your lead may not be consistant or your mould is cooling too much between pouring (this is a problem with the aluminium moulds)
What does your minimum bore mic to?
Blair

[Artyman]

A reading with vernier caliper, tight and able to rotate, comes to .577.

A bullet as large as these can get miss shapen just from falling hot into the cloth. The majority mic out at the .578 reading which suggests to me that the mould is bigger than the .575 they say it is.

Harry

[Georgia Frame]

Kevin,
The biggest problem with the outside lubbed paper patched bullet was in the lube collecting dust dirt and grit which would be introduced into the bore when the bullet was loaded.
The American minnie ball was groved to carry lube and the paper cartridge protected the lube from this and the paper was intended to be removed. "

I can tell you from a shooters standpoint, the Enfield Cartridge is easier/faster to load. No fumbling with taking the bullet out of the paper, just stick it in, break off the top of the cartridge, ram home. The longer Enfield cartridge is easier to handle.

Kevin Dally

[Blair]

Harry,
Most mould makers base their size info off of the use of #2 bullet aloy.
It cast very uniform bullets but is way too hard for casing minnie ball. Pure soft lead should be used for this.
It sounds like you may need three sizing dies ranging in dia. from .577, .576, .575
Trying to size them too much at one time with a push through can be difficult and can destort them.
Blair

[Blair]

Kevin,
I agree. The proccess does sound easier. I've loaded and shot a few American style cartridges and never had a problem removing the cartridge paper.
Make up the Enfield style cartridge was very time consuming by comparison. Where are you getting the Pritchett bullets for your loads?
Blair Taylor

[TheQM]

Hallo!

As shared, ideally, (for accuracy) one should shoot for (no pun intended) a .001 or .002 undersized ball unless one wants or needs to go with period tolerances.
But that is a larger discussion as cast bullets will throw slightly different diameter bullets depending upon how worn they are and at what temperature the mold and lead is. And that is further complicated as the Italian repro's over the years have actual barrel inside diameter that can vary as much as .575 all the way to .582 (I have had that range myself). (The British Parker Hale's progressive depth .577 so noted).

Curt

Curt,

Funny you should mention the various barrel measurements on repro firearms. I have three sizing dies, .575, .578, and .580. One of my rifles likes to be fed the .58 bullets. (Not sure I would want to be loading those bad boys, if someone was shooting back!)

I find when making .575 bullets, life is easier, if I size the rounds through the bigger dies first. I have two molds and one of them produce a bullet that's well over .58 in diameter.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I have three sizing dies, .575, .578, and .580."

Perhaps not so funny...
During my 17 years in the N-SSA, and shooting a variety of mostly custom-builts- I ALSO had sizing dies in the same .575, .578, and .580 (although in multiples to fit several sizing "machines").

:)

CHS

[Georgia Frame]

Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/thumbs/BU0906.JPG

I've fired these before at the range and found that they drop down the barrel with little to no help.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_311_313&products_id=13049
================================================== =======

How did you lube those bullets?
I'm at a loss to know why they would size them at .575":confused:
If you know anything about this type of bullet, and that it was paper patched originally, why make it so big? If they sized it .550", or .568" and blunted the nose a bit more, they would have something to work with.

The attached photo is a Pritchett Ball type bullet, (pictured left) lip-cast from an original mold a friend of mine picked up in England. The bullet has a cone type cavity, and drops out at .589". The center bullet is the same bullet sized .565"...stretched a bit when pressed thru the sizing die! The bullet on the right is a Lee .575" sized down to .565". The Lee bullet has a fairly rounded nose, and comes out about the same length as the British designed bullet. That is what I work with to make my British style cartridges, till I get something better.

Kevin Dally

[wmkane]

At first all I did was rub the round in a bit of beeswax that I had handy, though I honestly found that these rounds slid down the barrel of my Euroarms (and both of the Armisports that were along for the ride) {all three were Enfields} without much trouble at all. I fired these nearly a year ago, and as I recall, I was running a patch every few rounds, as that was the habit we had adopted that time out. We were not using paper at all.

================================================== =======

How did you lube those bullets?
I'm at a loss to know why they would size them at .575":confused:
If you know anything about this type of bullet, and that it was paper patched originally, why make it so big? If they sized it .550", or .568" and blunted the nose a bit more, they would have something to work with.

The attached photo is a Pritchett Ball type bullet, (pictured left) lip-cast from an original mold a friend of mine picked up in England. The bullet has a cone type cavity, and drops out at .589". The center bullet is the same bullet sized .565"...stretched a bit when pressed thru the sizing die! The bullet on the right is a Lee .575" sized down to .565". The Lee bullet has a fairly rounded nose, and comes out about the same length as the British designed bullet. That is what I work with to make my British style cartridges, till I get something better.

Kevin Dally