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MDRebCAv
11-21-2008, 11:15 AM
City Record writer, Robbie Whelan, proposes razing the Lee/Jackson equestrian statue in Baltimore.

Johns Hopkins University has declined to rent the Clipper Room to the SCV for the Lee/Jackson Day observance--despite the fact that they had done so for the last 20 years--solely on the grounds that they are a Confederate Heritage Organization. Both Blue and Gray units have taken part in this to commemorate two great Americans who stood for dedication, commitment and patriotism no less than their brothers in blue who fought on the other side.

Les Kinsolving (General Barksdale from G&G and Gettysburg--as well as a Baltimore radio personality) led with this on his talk show on WCBM radio on November 19--Remembrance Day.

Jeff Quinton has a good write up at:

http://insidecharmcity.com/2008/11/20/daily-record-writer-proposes-razing-lee-jackson-statue/

You can contact Elliott Cummings if you wish to support what is left of the remembrance of Lee/Jackson Day by contacting him at:

basilduke@comcast.net


Dan Kutrick
mdrebcav@gmail.com

Rob Weaver
11-22-2008, 04:09 PM
So why is there a Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore?

reb64
11-23-2008, 02:51 AM
I have warned this forum time and time again that certain affiliations will tear down our memorials, so why do we support them?

Dave Myrick
11-23-2008, 11:35 PM
So why is there a Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore?

During the WBTS, Baltimore was a hotbed of Southern Sympathy. It was the first city occupied by Federal forces, and numerous political and civlians were arrested, and detained at Ft. McHenry.
Why is there a Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore? It was erected post war to honor those men that the people living here revered.

Dave

Spinster
11-24-2008, 12:28 AM
Southern sympathy did indeed run high, as Federal troops traveling to defend Washington traveled through the street of Baltimore. The ensuing riots provoked this poem, written by James Ryder Randall, a native of Maryland, who was teaching near New Orleans. It was first published in a New Orleans newspaper, was widely popular during the war, and eventually adopted as the state song.

I
The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland!*
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861)That flecked the streets of Baltimore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_City),
And be the battle queen of yore, Maryland! My Maryland!
II
Hark to an exiled son's appeal, Maryland!
My mother State! to thee I kneel, Maryland!
For life and death, for woe and weal, Thy peerless chivalry reveal,
And gird they beauteous limbs with steel, Maryland! My Maryland!
III
Thou wilt not cower in the dust, Maryland!
Thy beaming sword shall never rust, Maryland!
Remember Carroll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Carroll_of_Carrollton)'s sacred trust, Remember Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Eager_Howard)'s warlike thrust,-
And all thy slumberers with the just, Maryland! My Maryland!
IV
Come! 'tis the red dawn of the day, Maryland!
Come with thy panoplied array, Maryland!
With Ringgold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Ringgold_(soldier))'s spirit for the fray, With Watson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Watson)'s blood at Monterey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monterrey),
With fearless Lowe and dashing May, Maryland! My Maryland!
V
Come! for thy shield is bright and strong, Maryland!
Come! for thy dalliance does thee wrong, Maryland!
Come to thine own anointed throng, Stalking with Liberty along,
And chaunt thy dauntless slogan song, Maryland! My Maryland!
VI
Dear Mother! burst the tyrant's chain, Maryland!
Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia) should not call in vain, Maryland!
She meets her sisters on the plain- "Sic semper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic_semper_tyrannis)!" 'tis the proud refrain That baffles minions back amain,
Arise in majesty again, Maryland! My Maryland!
VII
I see the blush upon thy cheek, Maryland!
For thou wast ever bravely meek, Maryland!
But lo! there surges forth a shriek, From hill to hill, from creek to creek-
Potomac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potomac_River) calls to Chesapeake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay), Maryland! My Maryland!
VIII
Thou wilt not yield the Vandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals) toll, Maryland!
Thou wilt not crook to his control, Maryland!
Better the fire upon thee roll, Better the blade, the shot, the bowl, Than crucifixion of the soul,
Maryland! My Maryland!
IX
I hear the distant thunder-hum, Maryland!
The Old Line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Line)'s bugle, fife, and drum, Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb- Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!
Maryland! My Maryland!

* Although the words as written, and as adopted by statute, contain only one instance of "Maryland" in the second and fourth line of each stanza, common practice is to sing "Maryland, my Maryland" each time to keep with the meter of the tune.


Less than a year later, came this song out of Michigan--same tune, same form, and of course, immensely popular--with an entirely different sympathy.

Home of my heart, I sing of thee! Michigan, My Michigan,
Thy lake-bound shores I long to see, Michigan, my Michigan.
From Saginaw’s tall whispering pines To Lake Superior’s farthest mines,
Fair in the light of memory shines
Michigan, my Michigan.

Thou gav’st thy sons without a sigh, Michigan, my Michigan,
And sent thy bravest forth to die, Michigan, my Michigan.
Beneath a hostile southern sky They bore thy banner proud and high,
Ready to fight but never fly, Michigan, my Michigan.

From Yorktown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yorktown_(1862)) on to Richmond’s wall, Michigan, my Michigan,
They bravely fight, as bravely fall, Michigan, my Michigan.
To Williamsburgh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Williamsburg) we point with pride— Our Fifth and Second, side by side,
There stemmed and stayed the battle’s tide, Michigan, my Michigan.

When worn with watching traitor foes, Michigan, my Michigan,
The welcome night brought sweet repose, Michigan, my Michigan.
The soldier, weary from the fight, Sleeps sound, nor fears the rebels’ might,
For “Michigan’s on guard tonight!” Michigan, my Michigan.

Afar on Shiloh’s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shiloh) fatal plain, Michigan, my Michigan,
Again behold thy heroes slain, Michigan, my Michigan. “
Their strong arms crumble in the dust, And their bright swords have gathered rust;
Their memory is our sacred trust,” Michigan, my Michigan.

And often in the coming years, Michigan, my Michigan,
Some widowed mother ‘ll dry her tears, Michigan, my Michigan,
And turning with a thrill of pride, Say to the children at her side,
At Antietam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antietam) your father died, For Michigan, our Michigan.

With General Grant’s victorious name, Michigan, my Michigan,
Thy sons still onward march to fame, Michigan, my Michigan.
And foremost in the fight we see, Where e’er the bravest dare to be,
The sabres of thy cavalry, Michigan, my Michigan.

Dark rolled the Rappahannock’s flood, Michigan, my Michigan,
The tide was crimsoned with thy blood, Michigan, my Michigan.
Although for us the clay was lost, Still it shall be our broadest boast:
At Fredericksburg our Seventh crossed! Michigan, my Michigan.

And when the happy time shall come, Michigan, my Michigan,
That brings thy war-worn heroes home, Michigan, my Michigan,
What welcome from their own proud shore, What honors at their feet we’ll pour,
What tears for those who’ll come no more, Michigan, my Michigan.

A grateful country claims them now, Michigan, my Michigan,
And deathless laurel binds each brow, Michigan, my Michigan;
And history the tale will tell, Of how they fought and how they fell,
For that dear land they loved so well, Michigan, my Michigan.

lincolnsguard
11-24-2008, 03:19 PM
Its only a second place statue anyway, so, what's the big deal?

5 th Alabama Infantry
11-24-2008, 06:36 PM
So why is there a Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore?


The General Lee and General Jackson Monument in Baltimore was erected in 1948 with funds provided by Mr. J. Henry Ferguson . He believed that these two great Confederate leaders were an example of character and duty to the youth of Baltimore.

Ross L. Lamoreaux
11-24-2008, 06:40 PM
Its only a second place statue anyway, so, what's the big deal?
Once again your mouth runs off with juvenile spatter. Regardless of one's affiliation, Jackson and Lee stand as great figures in a greater period of our nations history. They should be honored by all for just their service to the country before the war, let alone for what they contributed to their cause during it. I'm a firm nuetral when it comes to sides like this, so take it for what its worth from a student of history. Remarks like yours do little to add to this discussion.

5 th Alabama Infantry
11-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Letter to the Editor
Baltimore Civil War Roundtable


As many of you are aware, the Maryland Division, United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Col. Harry W. Gilmor Camp, Sons of Confederate Veterans sponsors the annual General Lee and General Jackson Birthday Ceremony each year in January on the Saturday nearest to the birthdays of Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. Over the years, the ceremony has included participants from numerous hereditary, historical , military and patriotic organizations including the Baltimore Civil War Roundtable. Other groups have included: the Virginia Military Institute Alumni , the Marine Corps League, the Virginians of Maryland, the Sons of Union Veterans, the Friends of President Street Station, the Army of Northern Virginia, Confederate Military Forces and a number of independent Confederate and Federal reenactment units.

Every year since 1988, the Johns Hopkins University has rented the Clipper Room in Shriver Hall, or on several occasions another facility, to the Son of Confederate Veterans to hold our post ceremony social gathering. However this year is different. The John Hopkins University has refused to rent the Clipper Room, or any other facility, to our organization. The sole reason given, per a Johns Hopkins representative, was that we are a “Confederate” organization. Make no mistake about it, we were not denied because the facility was unavailable, or for any other legitimate reason, we were denied because of who we are. In addition, the Hopkins representative stated that this ruling came directly from the President of the Johns Hopkins University, Mr. William Brody.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans has had an excellent on-going relationship with the Johns Hopkins, Office of Scheduling for over 20 years. There has been absolutely no problem over this long period of time. We have always been good citizens toward Hopkins. We have paid our rent on time, we have always left the facility neat and clean, and there has never been any disturbance of any kind. A letter was written on September 22, 2008 outlining our long history with the University and appealing this unwarranted decision. By letter of October 14, 2008 from President Brody’s Office, we were again denied.


Because of this unfortunate situation, I must advise the Baltimore Civil War Roundtable membership and the public at large that, should you decide to join us for the January 17, 2009 ceremony, you must understand that there will be no post event refreshments; and more importantly, no rest room facilities available before or after the ceremony. In addition, the ceremony may be substantially shorter than in previous years.

We are very sorry to report this to you, but feel that we must be candid with the Baltimore Civil Roundtable and others that have supported us over the years. I can assure you that regardless of the number of participants and people attending, and regardless of this unjust action by Hopkins against our Confederate Heritage, the General Lee and General Jackson Birthday Ceremony will be held on Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 11:00 a.m. at the Lee and Jackson double equestrian monument in Wyman Park.

If you would like to contact President Brody to express your concerns regarding this decision, his address is:

Mr. William R. Brody
President
The Johns Hopkins University
Office of the President
242 Garland Hall
3400 N. Charles Street
Baltimore MD 21218

Phone - Office of the President: 410-516-4351

E mail address : wrbrody@jhu.edu

You may also contact:

Dennis O'Shea
Communications and Public Affairs
The Johns Hopkins University

Phone 443-287-9960

E mail address dro@jhu.edu



Sincerely,

G. Elliott Cummings
Adjutant
Col. Harry W. Gilmor Camp #1388
Sons of Confederate Veterans

Bitter_Bierce
11-24-2008, 06:59 PM
Civil War statuary is being wasted in every city in America, North or South, where it mostly goes unnoticed and unappreciated and often attacked for just existing.

I say we reclaim these works of art and move them to where they will be appreciated and enjoyed. Therefore, I propose moving the Lee/Jackson memorial in Baltimore to Chancellorsville battlefield near the site of Lee and Jackson's last meeting.

From here:
http://williampcoleman.smugmug.com/photos/224994301-L.jpg

To here:
http://www.nps.gov/frsp/photosmultimedia/images/Lee-Jackson-Bivouac2_1.jpg

OK... I know... I'm being emotional and reactionary. But, dang... it sure would look better in the woods at Chancellorville instead of having the homeless sleeping around it in the middle of the day (yes, I've personnally seen that.)

40AcreMule
11-24-2008, 07:34 PM
City Record writer, Robbie Whelan, proposes razing the Lee/Jackson equestrian statue in Baltimore.

Fact check time. First of all, Robbie Whelan writes for the "The Baltimore City Paper," not the "City Record." Secondly, he wrote that in the "Maryland Daily Record" on their business blog page.

Thirdly, no where in Whelan's original editorial does he use the word "raze." Nor does he even say to move it somewhere else. He asks a rhetorical question: "Why, in Baltimore, is there still a statue commemorating generals Lee and Jackson? " No matter how you slice it, the word "still" is not the word "raze" nor is it the word "move." "Still" is still just still.

I don't see any call to raze or move the statue elsewhere in this quote either: "Given that what they stood for was, among other things, a divided America with a South that depended on slave labor, how must Baltimore’s 400,000 African-Americans feel about having such a statue in front of a public park — especially so close to one of the state’s most enlightened learning institutions?"

So maybe you don't agree with his assessment of why the war was fought, but he's still asking just a rhetorical question, and nothing more. (There's that word "still" again." "Still" makes me wanna drink sum moonshine, sho' nuff!)

OK, so maybe razing/moving the statue is implied, but before you let you blood pressure go through the roof, ask yourself this question: Who the heck is Robbie Whelan anyway? I hate to break the news to you, but Robbie Whelan is a nobody. Yes, a NOBODY! The Maryland Daily Record sure ain't the Wall Street Journal. The Baltimore City Paper, Whelan's other day job, is a free newspaper well known for being inflamatory just 'cause they can be. And nobody picks it up for the articles, just for the adds. I'm amazed that Whelan's childish rant even got any attention at insidecharmcity.com. Must be a slow week.

Nobody is calling for razing the statue. I suggest you rename the title of this thread to something more accurate like, "An insignificant junior reporter with a leftist free newspaper asks a silly rhetorical question." :roll: That is not exactly "news."

The real story seems to be the denial of allowing the SCV to meet where they've been meeting for over 20 years. IMO, that's a topic for another forum, not "Flags and Statues."

tompritchett
11-24-2008, 08:59 PM
The real story seems to be the denial of allowing the SCV to meet where they've been meeting for over 20 years. IMO, that's a topic for another forum, not "Flags and Statues."

I agree with you on the "real story" in the story but I must disagree with you about whether that it is a topic for another conference. "Flags & Statues" was established to deal with such topics.

CUPP
11-24-2008, 09:59 PM
That is actually a nice statue of them both

Spare_Man
11-25-2008, 09:47 PM
Nobody is calling for razing the statue. I suggest you rename the title of this thread to something more accurate like, "An insignificant junior reporter with a leftist free newspaper asks a silly rhetorical question." :roll: That is not exactly "news."I completely agree. No one is calling for razing or even moving the statue (except for Clement who would like to see it removed for historical/asthetic reasons).

This thread, indeed every paranoid outcry of presumed attack on so-called southern heritage, is beginning to sound like the little boy who cried wolf.


I agree with you on the "real story" in the story but I must disagree with you about whether that it is a topic for another conference. "Flags & Statues" was established to deal with such topics.That's all well and good, Tom. But the inflamitory title of this thread, as pointed out by Randy, is a gross exageration and it needs to be changed to something more accurate such as: "Editorialist questions existance of Lee/Jackson statue." The statue is not under threat of being razed at this point in time. Not even close. I don't understand why these forums are constantly being allowed to be hi-jacked by Chicken Littles who scream that the sky is falling every time someone only asks why the sky is blue.

USMRR
11-25-2008, 10:20 PM
Yep... the thread title is just plain wrong. It is a lie.

5 th Alabama Infantry
11-26-2008, 11:19 AM
I completely agree. No one is calling for razing or even moving the statue (except for Clement who would like to see it removed for historical/asthetic reasons).

This thread, indeed every paranoid outcry of presumed attack on so-called southern heritage, is beginning to sound like the little boy who cried wolf.

That's all well and good, Tom. But the inflamitory title of this thread, as pointed out by Randy, is a gross exageration and it needs to be changed to something more accurate such as: "Editorialist questions existance of Lee/Jackson statue." The statue is not under threat of being razed at this point in time. Not even close. I don't understand why these forums are constantly being allowed to be hi-jacked by Chicken Littles who scream that the sky is falling every time someone only asks why the sky is blue.

I could be wrong, and if so I apologize , but you may be confusing the constant clamor of many years from Tom Clement of SHAF to move the
Lee Monument erected by William Chaney in Sharpsburg with this Lee and Jackson monument in Baltimore.

Scooby_308
11-26-2008, 12:37 PM
Regardless of one's affiliation, Jackson and Lee stand as great figures in a greater period of our nations history. They should be honored by all for just their service to the country before the war, let alone for what they contributed to their cause during it.


You mean these guys did something before the War? Yes, I know they did, but it is too sad that others do not. If they did, they would honor them as you say.

Spare_Man
11-26-2008, 02:23 PM
I could be wrong, and if so I apologize , but you may be confusing the constant clamor of many years from Tom Clement of SHAF to move the
Lee Monument erected by William Chaney in Sharpsburg with this Lee and Jackson monument in Baltimore.I was referring to Clement Nottingway, aka "Bitter Bierce" who, on page one of this thread, suggested moving the Lee/Jackson statue from Baltimore to Chancellorsville near the site where the two had their last meeting before Jackson's death. You can read his reasons yourself. (I agree with his reasons, by the way. The smell of urine left by the homeless who sometimes encamp around the Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore is often overpowering and is gauranteed to spoil any visit. At Chancellorsville it would bring the Lee/Jackson meeting to life.)

I do not know, nor have I ever heard of a "Tom Clement" of SHAF. There is however, Tom Clemens of SHAF who vigoriously protests any new monuments at Antietam, and who was bitterly opposed to Bill Chaney's self-agrandizing, personal monument he had built of Lee near Sharpburg, which I now understand is on NPS property.

Anyway, this thread has become tainted with too much over-reaction, false assumptions and mistaken identities.

5 th Alabama Infantry
11-26-2008, 03:32 PM
I was referring to Clement Nottingway, aka "Bitter Bierce" who, on page one of this thread, suggested moving the Lee/Jackson statue from Baltimore to Chancellorsville near the site where the two had their last meeting before Jackson's death. You can read his reasons yourself. (I agree with his reasons, by the way. The smell of urine left by the homeless who sometimes encamp around the Lee/Jackson statue in Baltimore is often overpowering and is gauranteed to spoil any visit. At Chancellorsville it would bring the Lee/Jackson meeting to life.)

I do not know, nor have I ever heard of a "Tom Clement" of SHAF. There is however, Tom Clemens of SHAF who vigoriously protests any new monuments at Antietam, and who was bitterly opposed to Bill Chaney's self-agrandizing, personal monument he had built of Lee near Sharpburg, which I now understand is on NPS property.

Anyway, this thread has become tainted with too much over-reaction, false assumptions and mistaken identities.


I apologize for my mistake.