Rare "Blunt" Rifle Information

[Tiger_rifles]

Hello All, Can anyone give me any information on the "Blunt" Rifle and how they compair to a rifle made by the Marshall Manufactureing Co. of Holly Springs, Mississippi?

I know the basic story:
Blunt was from somewhere in Mass. and wanted to sell guns to the US Army, but they did not want any of them. A handfull of Blunt Rifles can be found in some modern collections,(I hear that the F-burg Museum has one!), and that they basiclly look like an Enfield with many differant barrel lenths.

Marshall Manufacturing Co. made "Grills" before the War and got a contract w/State of Miss. for 20,000 Rifles. By Nov. of 1861 they were putting out 40 muskets aday. After Shiloh, (June or July 1862), all thier machines were mover to Macon, Ga. and the factory was burned after Corinth.

This is what I would like to confirm...... if possible!
They made the basic Enfield musket using British made barrels, but all other parts by them,(Lockplate that will not fit a British Enfield, Americam black walnut stocks, etc....). Many of these muskets are mis-labeled as "Blunt" rifles by collectors. Mostly because no one has found any details as what type of arms Marshall was makeing.

Anybody got anymore information on this? Thanks.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I am not so sure there is any evidence of the Jones/ McElwaine/Barney partnership of the so-called "Marshall Manufacturing Company" at Holly Springs ever producing Enfields?

Surviving documents would seem to indicate that they announced a willingness to enter into contract for 50,000 rifles at $20 ech (they being referred to as "Belgian or Mississippi rifles" with "bayonets, an dwere described in the summer of 1861 as tooling up and construcitng the machinery.
McElwaine secured a July 1861 CS contract for 30,000 stands of arms consisting of 20,000 rifle-muskets and 10,000 rifles beginning with 2,000 stands per month in November of 1861.
However, records duirng that time showed they only were dibbling and dabblingn with state contracts for altering flintlock muskets and rifles, and making springs and parts, and fititng bayonets- and that no new arms had been made.
As a result, "Marshal" was set to be sold to the CS government and renamed as the Holly SPrings Armory in the Spring of 1862. Shortly thereafter, its faciities were devoted fully to altering and repairing muskets and the altering and adopting of sporting rifles into military useable ones.

Orison Blunt of NY City thought he was going into the gun business with a September 1861 contract for 20,000 .58 Enfield pattern rifle-muskets with 40 inch barrels.
He could not meet his first delivery date, and was granted an extension until July of 1862 based on the thinking that production was up and running.
However, someone in the Ordnance department was suspicious, and the 20,000 was reduced to just 3,000.
Whehter by design or need, Blunt was using a mix of English (3rd Model) and American made parts. By May, Blunt had only 500 done and ready for shipment.
Apparently, the Ordnance Department got fed up, and all of the Blunt arms were rejected and the contract cancelled. Without official acceptance, they likely were sold to individual states.

CHS

[Craig L Barry]

In an interesting side note to history, there was a recent auction for a valuable scrap of paper signed by Abraham Lincoln. The paper was the size of a modern business card and mounted between two protective glass panes, it is handwritten in ink and reads, "I think the government should take, at eighteen dollars per gun and accoutrements, all such as the sample to which this is attached, which Mr. Blunt will produce in six months, not exceeding four hundred per month—/ A. Lincoln/ Jan. 16 1862" .

It is noteworthy that Orison Blunt himself was a radical Republican and staunch Unionist in NYC during the Democrat run Boss Tweed/Tammany Hall-era. Was this Federal rifle-musket contract some form of political patronage on the part of President Lincoln? If so, the benefits were short-lived. The O. Blunt contract was cancelled by the Ordnance Department later in 1862 because the barrels as delivered were improperly proofed. The lock plates were mostly unmarked, however some were found stamped with the date “1862” and “Union” forward of the hammer, and a shield behind the hammer the barrel was stamped on the upper left side with a (unknown) mark of DP over B within an oval. Like the JP Moore contract, it appears as if these rifle-muskets were assembled from imported, rejected or surplus parts.

[Tiger_rifles]

Thank you Gentlemen, I knew that if i asked those with a bigger brain than mine, an answer would be found!

I am going through an old book,("FIREARMS of the CONFEDERACY" by Fuller & Steuart. Copyright 1944), I have inherited. It has some very interesting information but i fear much of it is outdated.

"Blair" Taylor also added in a PM to me that what my book mistook for a "Blunt" and poss. Marshall manufactureing musket, is most likely a J.P. Morris contract musket of New York. Due to the Eagle/Shield with "M" stamp just behind the hammer. And that he is offering this musket in a custom reproduction right now in the "Sutlers" section. he sent me some great photos of his repro musket and it matches what the book shows.

Thank you for the help Gentlemen...... if i could just get some information on that "Geo. H. Todd"!!!

[Craig L Barry]

The firm of J.P. Moore & Sons delivered a little over a thousand finished arms by 1863 at a price of $15.00 each, thought to be mostly assembled by Moore’s sons from surplus parts manufactured in Europe and elsewhere. J.P. Moore was an import agent for (Samuel) Colt. It is believed Colt arranged for the exportation from Europe of the parts which Moore than assembled into the Federal contract arms. J.P. Moore & Sons were well known New York area gun dealers previously believed to have assembled sporting guns from foreign made parts, or even importing fully finished arms then selling them as American made. Lock plates were marked with the date in front of the hammer, and a Federal eagle and shield variant encompassing the letter “M” on the tail. Dates of 1861, 1862 and 1863 would be expected. Existing examples are now very scarce.

I have to confess I have not ever heard of Geo H Todd of Montgomery, Alabama making US Springfield clones out of captured parts. That's got to be a rare one.

[Tiger_rifles]

Thanks fo rthe Information.

As for the Todd Muskets, I was killing time in my local Library with my kids last night and found one of the Osprey books on "Confederate Equipment". On one page the listed the Gun makers of the South. George H. Todd of Montgomery Ala. was listed. The Ref. was from "Flaydermanns". But ofcourseI can not find my Flaydermanns!

I then did a "Todd" search via Google, and found a listing for Todd in a new book out called "2008 Cataloge of Firearms"

But all these sources could be from Flaydermanns??????
Thanks again, Paul.

[Blair]

Paul,
You may want to see if you can find a copy of Bill Edwards book "Civil War Guns" to see what he may have on the Todd Rifle Musket.
Blair Taylor

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Todd stumps me... the only referecne I can think of is circa 1962-

Edward's (p. 387) talking about a George Todd Springfield type musket in the Battle Abbey collection in Richmond. Lockplate, hammer, bands, trigger guard and plate, butt plate, and nose cap are all of brass. The barrel is U.S. proofed.
The lock plate is stamped "Geo. H. Todd, Montgomery, Ala. in fornt of the hammer, and behind the hammer "C.S.A. 1864."
Edwards believed that it is either a salvage/recycle effort on the part of the Confederates, OR a fabrication/creation to appeal to collectors.

CHS

[Craig L Barry]

I'd have to agree with Curt (again) here. These Geo Todd rifles would be "odd ducks." There is certainly ample evidence that the CS Armories refurbished weapons with parts gleaned from the battlefields of Virginia, and it appears sometimes accidents happened:

From the Richmond Enquirer, 7/9/1862, p. 2, c. 5
ACCIDENTALLY SHOT. – One of the wagoners, employed in hauling muskets from the recent battle fields, while taking off his load at Thomas’ factory, on Monday evening, met with a serious accident, by which the fingers of his left hand were terribly shattered. He was pulling one of the muskets from out of the mass, in order to extricate others, when the lock became entangled, and, the piece being loaded, the cock was drawn back, slipped, and the contents exploded. The wagoner’s hand being upon the muzzle, received the charge, which passed through and slightly injured one of his legs. His name is Wm. Johnson, of Company B, Sixteenth Virginia Regiment.

Another article mentions 25,000 small arms were captured from the battlefields after the Seven Days (1862) and brought to the Armory for refurbishing.

[Tiger_rifles]

Many Thanks for all the information Gents.

I am not trying to be a pain here, I just was looking for a late war CS musket project and a repro Todd was gonna be it! But with only one known example and no proof it was really made during the War...... maybe I will have to go to my fall back and continue to use my mdl 1842. So few of the CS made muskets are 3 banders. And since I am out West here, (mostly Trans-Miss and AOT Events), a Richmond just will not fit! I know they made quite a few 2 band/33" barrel mdls, but when you fall into ranks with one of those the rest of the troops look at you like you have the plauge! (Just like when I showed up at Corinth with a flintlock! I'll never do that again!)
I have seen some 1816/22 conv/reworked and restamped as "CS", but I would guess that these ran out fairly early in the War.
Anybody reworking captured mdl 1861's out West? Ever seen any Mdl 1861's with brass bands, butte plates, and/or trigger guards? Any filed and restamped 1861 locks?
I have an 1851 dated Springfield mdl 1842 lock that has a half round area filed out of it......as if some "French style" bolster conv. barrel was installed. Wish i could have seen the whole musket!
Thanks for the help, Paul.

[Craig L Barry]

In JB Jones Rebel Clerk's Diary, he mentions 75,000 Enfield .577 rounds going to the Trans Mississippi in September 1863...Seems like there may have been a few Enfields "out west" or the officers would not have ordered those particular cartridges.

I would not make things too complicated. Shoot for "PEC" to quote Herr Kammeraden. If you have an Enfield and a US 1842 you ought to be able to cover most battle scenarios in the Civil War hobby. Nobody is going to ask you to leave with either one of those muskets in tow. Remember, just because somebody saw one in EoG, all that means is there was one (1). I have always thought it was good if you want to be "unique" to study an original weapon with a confirmed Civil War provenance and copy it exactly.

[Tiger_rifles]

Thanks Craig, I know what you mean, for the CS troops it seems the 1816/22, the 1842, and the Enfield were the real work horses!
While doing some research, I had the good luck to speak to the "Main-Man" at the Tyler Ordnance Works Museum and almost ALL of thier records survived the War. He stated that from the begining to the end, the most produced round at Tyler was the 69 Buck and Ball! Next came the Enfield, then 54 minie, then the 58 minie. Lastly were the other import rounds.
Thanks again everybody! Paul.