Parker Hale Enfields versus the Original

[Tiger_rifles]

Seeing that 53rd OVI stated he does not mind if someone "hy jacks" his thread, I would love to hear how a Parker- Hall Enfield compares to an original.
I picked up my PH used back in 1984, and it has a 4 digit serial number.

Thank you very much for all the information on the Euro arms and Armi sport Enfields, I really had no idea, (have not really used my Enfield since getting a de-farbed Mdl 1842.). Thank you Gentlemen.
Paul.

[Blair]

Paul,
The Parker Hale (PH) Enfield was a copy of the 4th Pattern Enfield as was made by the Royal Small Arms Factory (RSAF). This was the equivalent to the National Armory to the British as Springfield and Harpers Ferry was in America.
The P-1853 4th Patern Enfield was a fully interechangeable firearm. The first such pattern arm made in the British Military.
The original Pattern Arm for this firearm was on display in the Tower of Loundon Museum. It was loaned to the Italian gun maker of Euroarms to make moulds and the castings and other various parts. Parker Hale took those parts and finished them out using British Whitworth threads as were used on the original weapons.
PH are very well made firearms and except for the threads are interchangeable with the Euroarms Enfields.
Very few (if any) of the RSAF made 4th Pattern Enfields saw service in the American Civil War because they were the newest and best Military firearm the British had in their inventory at that time.
Blair Taylor

[Tiger_rifles]

WOW! S&%Ks to be me!
I love this old P-H Enfield so i do not want to butcher it up too much, but what would be the best road to go?
I am willing to change out the bands for the more correct screw down type.
Would also be willing to go with the solid style with band springs.
Where could I locate these items? Also i have an extra P-H lock plate, is there anyone that could restamp it? What would be the most correct stamping? Is it also correct to replace the lockplate screw washers from rounded to squared off ends?

I also have an older P-H Mdl 1858 2-bander that someone "Confederized" (removed the blueing, started to remove the stock finish, etc...)
What's a good option for this? I know 2-banders are not allowed anymore but what about a good Living History/display piece, maybe Cavalry????
Thanks for all the Help Gents!

[Blair]

Paul, You may want to start a new thread on this subject.

I do some of the type of work you are asking about.
You might start with checking out my website at
http://www.customizedcwguns.com
I guess the best suggestion I can give you is that you need to decied just what it is you want done, then see if that fits into what your pocket book can stand.
Generally speaking reworking a firearm you already own is cheaper than buying a new one. This of course depends greatly on what has to be done to the weapon. The more parts and pieces that have to be replaced the more it will cost. In the case of the Parker Hale, they aren't being made any longer. So, you may want to leave it as is? But that is up to you and one of the things you have to decied.
Many of the parts to do the diffrent types of work your asking about are available. Some may take months to get debending on who you go to and they still require fitting and finishing.
You may contact me by e-mail if you wish at BTAYLOR18@cfl.rr.com I can give you more details.
Blair Taylor

[FifthVA]

Paul,
I just had a 1970's Parker Hale defarbed by Todd Watts. You can contact him via the Blockade Runners Sutlers. He did an absolutely phenomenal job on my gun.

The easiest defarb for the PH Enfield is to make it a reproduction of a London Armory Company made Enfield, which was used in the Civil War (mostly by the South). It is the easiest because you don't have replace the barrel bands, lock plate screw estuchions or the rear sling swivel.

One of the great things about a PH Enfield is the stock does not have to be recontoured like an Armi Sport or Euroarms Enfield.

The basic defarb is:
Strip existing finish off the stock, refinish with boiled linseed oil
Remove PH stock cartouche and restamp with LA Co. cartouche
Remove existing stamps from lock plate and restamp with appropriate LA Co. stamps.
Grind down hammer to remove lines and feathering (LA Co. guns had plan hammers).

Gary Acord

[Jim Mayo]

I turned my early PH into a Birmingham gun. Wish I had gone the LAC route as suggested above. Lot less work.

[Tiger_rifles]

Many Thanks to all of you for takeing the time to share your knowledge with me. Seems i have a lot to think on. I have given some thought to what Blair stated, just put it up on the wall , but I don't know if I care to buy another rifle when this one is in such good working order. On the other hand, I like to pay respect to all parties involved and hit the field with a weapon as close to original as possible.
Again Gentlemen, many Thanks!
Paul.

[Blair]

Paul,
You have a defarbed '42. These, in the smooth bore are the perfict firearm for reenacting.
Your not shooting a projectal so you have no need to worry about how accuracy will be effected from shooting blanks.
Blair Taylor

[Tiger_rifles]

I know what you are saying Blair, it makes perfect sense! But I have had this P-H Enfield for almost 25 years! It was the first real re-enacting musket I had, **** its the best re-enacting FRIEND I ever had! I would love to take it out to the field again, mostly thinking of all the 145th's of 1864 and 1865 that will be coming up soon. Just looking in the mirror this morning I can tell you I will be Dead or too OLD for any of the 150th's!

But you are right,(my common sense says so also), my 42 will suite just fine!
Thanks again, paul.

[Craig L Barry]

...just like yours, serial # 04437 that I fitted with an original LACo 1861 lock assembly. It dropped right in. Todd Watts has it at the moment to put the London proof marks and stock stamps on it, which I am finally getting around to doing. I was conflicted as it is at least 25 years old, it is an excellent reproduction and very well made, if you think about it, the P-H is kind of a piece of history in and of itself if you know what I mean...There are many campaigns still left in it. To address your question, it is not that difficult to produce a 4th type LACo out of one of these vintage Brit Parker-Hales, because that is what they are copied from. However, as Blair suggests the 4th type LACs would be relatively rare. I know of only a few 4th type LACs with confirmed US Civil War provenance in private collections and they all have late war dates. Or you can do the more common Type III, by putting square earred washers and contractor sling swivels on it with an early date (like mine), along with the proof marks/stock stamps.

One slight correction to what is posted above, some of the P-H parts will interchange with Euroarms and you can see the P-H stamp right on the bridle of a Euroarms lock assembly. However, the lockplates vary slightly and not all of them interchange. The earlier Euroarm lock plates are slightly larger than the ones marked LONDON ARMOURY and LONDON ARMORY.

[Enfield577]

Seeing that 53rd OVI stated he does not mind if someone "hy jacks" his thread, I would love to hear how a Parker- Hall Enfield compares to an original.
I picked up my PH used back in 1984, and it has a 4 digit serial number.


Paul,

Two parts that P-H did NOT copy from the original parts gauges were the hammer and the upper sling swivel. Therefore, these are not quite like those on original RSAF Enfields (the upper sling swivel is an offset kind, very different from the original).

The hammer you can get away with (it's just not quite the right shape), but the upper sling swivel will need to be swapped out (Lodgewood and others have repros).

Geoff Walden

[Tiger_rifles]

Thank you all for the input, I think I would like to move more toward a Type 3 Enfield and not the Type 4 L.A. Co eventhough it would be the easier defarb. I have read great articles from people with much bigger brains than I, like Geoff, Todd, etc....
I think I understand most/if not all that is needed to defard a repro enfield.
But will you allow me two more questions?
One, can anyone confirm: The PH markings to the barrel,(P-H LTD. Birmingham, England), on the stock,(P-H LTD.), and under the Crown (P.H), are farb are must go? Correct?

And 2nd, In all the articles I could find, in ref. to Type 3 Enfields, I can only find two types of Lock markings. The "Tower" and the "London" with maker over it. But I have a PH lock from my 1858 mdl that is stamped w/the Crown, "1858" dated and "Enfield" under the date. The lock has no lines engraved around the edge. While searching pictures of Enfields on the net, I found many original "Enfield" marked locks with dates from 1857 to 1864, all w/no edge lines and "V.R" under the Crown. Now I will admit that many of these locks are on rifles that are in England and have been conv. to the Snider.
So can i use this lock if I remove the "P.H" under the Crown and replace w/a "V.R'?

[Jim Mayo]

Yes they have to go. Not hard to take the PH markings off of the stock. I sanded mine off and it left no trace after I refinished the stock. You have to do a large area around the stamp to keep from having a depression where the stamp was.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Do yourself a great favor and go out and get a copy of "The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy - Lock, Stock, and Barrel" by our very own Craig L. Barry. It is 155 pages of family fun with great illlustrations and more detail than almost any of care to read - but its all there. Perhaps the great Mr. Barry can pipe in about available copies?

[Craig L Barry]

...for the kind words Mr Lamoreaux. There are probably a few copies of the 1st Edition of "Civil War Musket" at the Eastern NPS bookstores. The 2nd Edition is being revised/edited, as it will have quite a bit more material. It will be available on CD ROM next year. As with all Watchdog publications, a portion of the proceeds goes to battlefield preservation.

In brief, the old Parker Hale is an excellent reproduction, but still needs quite a bit of work "retro-verting" (from the Curt Heinrich Schmidt lexicon) or back dating into the type of P53 imported by both sides by the hundreds of thousands. Specifically, the modern markings on the lock, stock & barrel will need to be removed. You can do some of that work yourself if you are handy, and if not I would suggest that you save yourself some grief and have the work professionally done. You can only take it so far yourself, unless you have the correct stamps for whatever P53 you are trying to duplicate. I got my own P-H about 70% of the way there, and Todd Watts (Blockade Runner) has it now to do the stock and barrel stamping.

[Blair]

Paul,

One of the things you might want to concider here is that your Parker Hale may have a higher value if you leave it alone. A higher value than what it cost new. This is something few of the other reproduction firearms can do.
If you, or you have someone else start removing all those marking that can varifiy it as a true PH, you may end up with a more authentic looking firearms but you maybe lowering the value. That is assuming you ever sell it.
Blair Taylor

[Tiger_rifles]

OK, It seems that I really need to sit down and write all this down using the "pro" and "cons" system. As it stands now i will leave the old PH on the wall for a while until I can take all this in!

I would still like to know where the "Enfield" marked locks come from. From all that i have read to date there are only 3 lock markings shown as correct for a defarbed rifle, "L.A. Co.", "TOWER", and "LONDON" with makers name above. But I see many original locks marked "ENFIELD", where do these fall into line?

[Jim Mayo]

Have you read the following:

http://authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfield%20pages/enfauth.htm

[Craig L Barry]

For purposes of this discussion that is good advice. In brief, ENFIELD on the lockplate means the weapon was produced by the Royal Small Arms Factory (aka Manufactory) which was a government facility for the British Army. These were not believed to have been sold commerically and used here during the Civil War.

As far as commerical P53s, made for sale and not for the British government...Some locks were blank, some were marked TOWER (usually B'ham), others with the makers name. The Parker Hale is a copy, virtually an exact copy, of a type IV RSAF "Enfield". The kind made for the British Army and not used over here during the Civil War. Hence, the long and short of it is that the easiest de-farb would be a LAC type IV, with a later date, 1862 or later. Some of these were used over here. Whether that raises or lowers the value of the weapon relative to its collectors value is not the question at bar because you are not selling it, right?

[Tiger_rifles]

Thank you Mr. Mayo, yes i have read that article twice thru and then refered back too many times, very informative, but I could find no ref. to the "ENFIELD" marked locks. Now I know why!
I tried to read up on all I could before asking the question. I searched here and I looked all that I could on the AC, but as I am not a member, I could only search so far, so thanks to all for the links.

Thanks to Mr. Barry also, for the explaination on the "ENFIELD" marked locks. You are correct, no plans to sell my P-H, just not sure yet if I wish to convert so much of it from its original look. Maybe start looking for a used Enfield that has already been defarbed.

I would really like to thank all that replied to this thread, now I can make a truely educated choice and not one I might regret down the road.