Rest

[50th VA Corporal]

Please correct me if I am wrong. Am I to understand there are three forms of "REST"?

Command: "REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and has stacked arms and the soldiers are allowed to leave the formation, remaining behind the stacks, and not required to maintain position or silence.

Command: "IN PLACE REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and the soldier is not required to maintain silence but must maintain at least one foot in their file position.

Command: "PARADE REST" - At this command the soldier is required to maintain the position of Parade Rest and maintain silence in the ranks.

I have found at times when in battalion formation the command "REST" has been given but those in the ranks do not observe the criteria of the command "IN PLACE REST", moving their feet out of file position nor maintaining any uniform position of their hands relative to their musket as dictated in requirements of the command "PARADE REST".

Have some forms of "re-enactorisms" settled into the hobby in regards to these commands?

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[dedogtent]

Jas,

Your three forms of 'Rest' look right on to me. This is what we do in the 2nd Delaware so I hope we are doing things right. If not, someone please inform.

[50th VA Corporal]

Jas,

Your three forms of 'Rest' look right on to me. This is what we do in the 2nd Delaware so I hope we are doing things right. If not, someone please inform.

Aha! There is yet a fourth "REST" that I overlooked: Coming from support arms: Hardee's School of the Soldier paragraph 137...

I brought up this topic as I believe I have yet to find those in my ranks and those around me are unaware of all of the facets of "REST". I do believe there are times while I am in formation where even officers use the command with ambiguity, that is without disclipine to the context of its use.

For the most part I believe I have been executing the command(s) correctly but with a recent promotion to 1st. Sgt. I have been digging far deeper into subjects I should, and better, know.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[dedogtent]

Aha! There is yet a fourth "REST" that I overlooked: Coming from support arms: Hardee's School of the Soldier paragraph 137...

I brought up this topic as I believe I have yet to find those in my ranks and those around me are unaware of all of the facets of "REST". I do believe there are times while I am in formation where even officers use the command with ambiguity, that is without disclipine to the context of its use.

For the most part I believe I have been executing the command(s) correctly but with a recent promotion to 1st. Sgt. I have been digging far deeper into subjects I should, and better, know.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal


You are right again, the command rest for the Support Arms.

[Huck Finn]

James:

You are headed down the very dark and winding path to authenticity. Be afraid. Be very afraid. :D

[50th VA Corporal]

James:

You are headed down the very dark and winding path to authenticity. Be afraid. Be very afraid. :D

Well, Huck,

As one elected / selected for leadership by his peers it would be encumbant of me to not only lead by example, but know what I need to show. I have been leaning more and more towards the authentic side of the hobby since being recruited; at least being more progressive in my impression. It's a lot easier to teach a truth than to correct the balderdash...

Route step is another command I have problems with. Generally when that command is given I see many, many re-enactors not only change their cadence of step, which is correct, they mistakenly find all the incorrect ways to carry their muskets. "Arms At Will" does not mean carry the musket any which way you please during route step. I have yet to find a reference in any of my manuals that indicate a specific manner in carrying arms at the route step in the same paragraph; but maybe that is an oversight. From day one I have found it easier carrying my musket against one or the other of my shoulders supported by my free hand - just as the manuals dictate.

Afraid, no; only afraid to be executing the wrong and not realizing it!

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

(Actually new 1st Sgt, but I still like the old signature and will keep it just in case I screw up bad enough and get demoted....)

[Silas]

Regarding the various positions of rest, see one of my old articles : Rest, rest, rest and rest (http://44tennessee.tripod.com/rest.html).

[flattop32355]

I brought up this topic as I believe I have yet to find those in my ranks and those around me are unaware of all of the facets of "REST".

Welcome to the world of Trying To Do It The Right Way. You will find that there are numerous ways in which we can improve.


I do believe there are times while I am in formation where even officers use the command with ambiguity, that is without disclipine to the context of its use.

Never forget that many officers are in the same boat as you; still learning. We won't even talk about those who don't care enough about the men under them to try to lead them properly.

Should you note your officer making a mistake, let it ride for the moment, and bring the subject to their attention privately. It keeps them from getting embarassed or angry, keeps you from looking bossy, and on occasion may actually show that the officer was right and you were incorrect (don't ask me how I know that).

[RJSamp]

Please correct me if I am wrong. Am I to understand there are three forms of "REST"?

Command: "REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and has stacked arms and the soldiers are allowed to leave the formation, remaining behind the stacks, and not required to maintain position or silence.

Command: "IN PLACE REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and the soldier is not required to maintain silence but must maintain at least one foot in their file position.

Command: "PARADE REST" - At this command the soldier is required to maintain the position of Parade Rest and maintain silence in the ranks.

I have found at times when in battalion formation the command "REST" has been given but those in the ranks do not observe the criteria of the command "IN PLACE REST", moving their feet out of file position nor maintaining any uniform position of their hands relative to their musket as dictated in requirements of the command "PARADE REST".

Have some forms of "re-enactorisms" settled into the hobby in regards to these commands?

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

As others have stated their are 4 kinds...

In your above example....REST means REST.... lie down, start boiling coffee, tidy yup.....

no reenactorisms in our unit....the commands and their execution are explanatory.

BTW, while on the march, at the route step, we cause the Attention to be sounded. This brings the men back to cadence, support arms, closes up the ranks to their correct alignment, captains return to the head of the company.
Then the Halt is sounded and you halt. I don't find many references to Stacking Arms for a 10 minute halt in 50 covering 15+ miles per day....so you have the bugler sound Lie Down...which means REST...and you get in the shade, swap out socks, get off or your feet, etc.

When the colors are reposted on the road, Attention sounded, you get up off of your feet and resume your place in the column. The Forward is sounded and off you go, returning to route step when ordered, usually only a few rods down the road.

When converting from a column of manuever to a column of route, we will briefly halt and send the field musics to the head of the column where they can lead us over hill undt dale.

[Memphis]

Another question is whether "route" in route step is pronounced "root" or "rowt." Never have seen that one successfully argued to a definitive answer.

[hanktrent]

Another question is whether "route" in route step is pronounced "root" or "rowt." Never have seen that one successfully argued to a definitive answer.

Hmm... A search of the usual databases shows it misspelled numerous times as "rout" but not as "root."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[RJSamp]

Another question is whether "route" in route step is pronounced "root" or "rowt." Never have seen that one successfully argued to a definitive answer.

I get my kicks, on Root 66 at the rowt step. Mail carrier rowt is rural rowt 1. The rebs were rowted out of the trenches and sent in retreat down Root 4..rowted out a pace considerable faster than the rowt step.

[Claude Sinclair]

Please correct me if I am wrong. Am I to understand there are three forms of "REST"?

Command: "REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and has stacked arms and the soldiers are allowed to leave the formation, remaining behind the stacks, and not required to maintain position or silence.

Command: "IN PLACE REST" - This command is given, for instance, when a battalion (or company) is in formation and the soldier is not required to maintain silence but must maintain at least one foot in their file position.

Command: "PARADE REST" - At this command the soldier is required to maintain the position of Parade Rest and maintain silence in the ranks.

I have found at times when in battalion formation the command "REST" has been given but those in the ranks do not observe the criteria of the command "IN PLACE REST", moving their feet out of file position nor maintaining any uniform position of their hands relative to their musket as dictated in requirements of the command "PARADE REST".

Have some forms of "re-enactorisms" settled into the hobby in regards to these commands?

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

Sgt. Lemon,

Follow Silas's link. He studies drill more than anyone I know and he backs it up with the manual text. One of my officiers told me that he wants to grow up to be just like him. When I put my battalion at "Parade Rest" I look down the line to make sure everyone is correct. I do not overlook the basics. If someone is talking I will look into their eyes and yell, "Shut-Up". Now the Officers have started keeping their men quiet. We do a School of the NCO on the second Saturday in January and you are more than welcome to come and spend the weekend with us. We also do a School of the Officer on the same day. Before we started doing the NCO school we were doing various ways of Parade rest. Hardly any were correct. Rest is simple with stacked arms as is "In Place Rest" while you are on the line. We seldom use "Rest" while at "Support Arms" unless you are standing guard. Hardly anyone does "Support Arms" correct. It is another thing that we are always working on. Keep on studying the manual and don't feel shy to ask Silas a question. I have found him very helpful to work with.

[cblodg]

Silas, that is a great article. And I especially love all of the perioed back up that is included.

Those are the same way we do "REST, etc, etc."

Which manual is it where you march at support arms in the "rest" position? I've run into some groups who automatically go to the "rest" in support, and I have yet to find it in Casey's (which is what we use) or other manuals.

[Silas]

Although I've heard it ordered many times at reenactments, I've not seen the marching rest for support arms. The way I read the text, it appears only to be a method of supporting arms while halted.

I think the bigger problem is that too many reenactors don't perform support arms correctly. It's easy to grab that handle when arms are incorrectly sloped to the rear during support arms. Sloped to the rear is for right shoulder shift, not support arms. See the Mark Hermann article on my links page for details about how to support arms correctly. Many pictures in his article.

The way I know I'm doing support correctly is when I go from the old carry to support and back. The musket is pretty much in the same position for both positions : on the side of the body and as straight as can be. On the left shoulder and sloped to the rear isn't support. That's what reenactors call support arms.

[flattop32355]

The oft-used drawing of Mexican War soldiers moving at Support Rest is the only evidence I've seen of the practice. That at least means it was known at that time, unless the artist just made it up.

Being of rounder shape than the originals, it is difficult for me at times while marching to maintain a proper position for Support Arms; the weapon begins to slide and slip around, banging into my bayonet socket. I'll sometimes go to the rest position with my right hand to stablize it. Whether it is in the manual or not, it seems quite practical for short bursts.

Support Arms strikes me as more cumbersome than any other position in which to march. I'm not convinced it was common thing back then, either, though I have no period evidence to support such an opinion.

[50th VA Corporal]

Sgt. Lemon,

Follow Silas's link. He studies drill more than anyone I know and he backs it up with the manual text. One of my officiers told me that he wants to grow up to be just like him. When I put my battalion at "Parade Rest" I look down the line to make sure everyone is correct. I do not overlook the basics. If someone is talking I will look into their eyes and yell, "Shut-Up". Now the Officers have started keeping their men quiet. We do a School of the NCO on the second Saturday in January and you are more than welcome to come and spend the weekend with us. We also do a School of the Officer on the same day. Before we started doing the NCO school we were doing various ways of Parade rest. Hardly any were correct. Rest is simple with stacked arms as is "In Place Rest" while you are on the line. We seldom use "Rest" while at "Support Arms" unless you are standing guard. Hardly anyone does "Support Arms" correct. It is another thing that we are always working on. Keep on studying the manual and don't feel shy to ask Silas a question. I have found him very helpful to work with.

Thanks Claude,

I have been haunting Silas's links and either missed that topic or read it too long ago. Those are some great links and also have found many, many others that are useful, including the Pametto Battalion's.

A lot of free information out there if one really looks...

While I am finding much information "out there" to learn and clarify, I am finding out there is a lot I am already doing right and essentially know (tactics) but did not know the proper terminology. I am looking forward to the spring with anewed level of confidence and gained knowledge.

Jas. T. Lemon
1st. Sgt.
50th VA

[ejazzyjeff]

"Arms At Will" does not mean carry the musket any which way you please during route step. I

I can't remember where I read it (need to check the manual when I get home), but I remember reading that the musket should be carried as described in the manual of arms (the support arms, secure arms, trail arms, etc) or at least the barrel should always be vertical. I've seen people carrying their weapon over their shoulders like they plan to carry buckets of water and also see it being carried with one hand and musket in a horizontal position.

[Pvt Schnapps]

The oft-used drawing of Mexican War soldiers moving at Support Rest is the only evidence I've seen of the practice. That at least means it was known at that time, unless the artist just made it up.

Being of rounder shape than the originals, it is difficult for me at times while marching to maintain a proper position for Support Arms; the weapon begins to slide and slip around, banging into my bayonet socket. I'll sometimes go to the rest position with my right hand to stablize it. Whether it is in the manual or not, it seems quite practical for short bursts.

Support Arms strikes me as more cumbersome than any other position in which to march. I'm not convinced it was common thing back then, either, though I have no period evidence to support such an opinion.

Bernie, try it without your haversack or canteen, as they did, and if possible with an original firearm, as they did. The reason most reenactors do it "wrong" is because of a well-founded reluctance to have the heavier-barreled repro plop forward onto the ground.

At the risk of sounding heretical, I would opine that the time spent trying to master the correct position of Support Arms with inappropriate ordnance and camp and garrison equipage is perhaps better spent on other improvements to one's impression. Like practicing penmanship. ;-)

[50th vice pres]

We do a School of the NCO on the second Saturday in January and you are more than welcome to come and spend the weekend with us. We also do a School of the Officer on the same day.
Where might this weekend class be taking place?

[Silas]

South Carolina. Go to http://www.palmettobattalion.org for details.

[flattop32355]

Bernie, try it without your haversack or canteen, as they did, and if possible with an original firearm, as they did. The reason most reenactors do it "wrong" is because of a well-founded reluctance to have the heavier-barreled repro plop forward onto the ground.

Herr Schnapps, practice and experimentation with the exact location of the hammer on the arm have now rendered it possible to reach the desired vertical position in most cases while fully geared and stationary.

The problem continues, however, in the mobile state if done for any distance and at speed, unless adding the right hand to the small of the stock.

My modern day penmanship is of biblical proportions: It sucketh. I hazard to guess what my period efforts would yield. I think it best to stick to my NCO's pencil.

[Pvt Schnapps]

It shouldn't be that difficult -- an underlying theme throughout the tactics manuals was natural and easy motions.

Still, it should comfort you to know that in motion the original soldiers also compromised a little. If you bring up the tif of the following picture and look at the sentries on the right, walking back and forth, you'll notice that they don't quite manage to keep the weapons vertical.

The middle figure is very blurry but you can nonetheless clearly see that the butt of his piece is in front of his left thigh, as it is with most of us when we try to march at Support Arms, although he like all the rest is sans canteen and haversack.

http://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/cwpb/02700/02791u.tif

Apart from that, it's kind of neat to see the VRC out front and center at the big parade. :-)

[wmkane]

I love the photo . . . not only can you get a chance to look at how the veterans did it, but there's a blooper too! It looks like the fifth enlisted man from the left has just sneezed hard enough that his officer is giving him quite the grief for it . . either that or he's found something so incredibly funny, that he couldn't contain himself. I just can't decide which version of the story I like better :-D

[Pvt Schnapps]

Here's another angle at the same group. Notice the guy furthest on the right again (unfortunately most of the marching figures are blurry ghosts):
http://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/cwpb/00500/00579u.tif

Who makes the best VRC jacket?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

"who makes the best VRC jacket?" - The Schuylkill Depot did back in 1864

[Silas]

Here's a link to a photo from a reenactment which occured last weekend in California : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/413143231_aGPMF-XL.jpg These folks are standing in a formal manner when supposedly at rest. Although technically correct, there's a problem with the way these folks are resting in place. Either heel on the line is all that's required for this manoeuver. The manual contemplates that you can turn around and talk to the guys in the rear rank if you want. You just need to be able to spin on that heel and return to the position of the soldier at a moment's notice if called to attention.

When a slew of guys in the same unit stand in a uniform manner with their weapons uniformly lined up, you've got a formal practice for an informal way of standing. Formality is not what resting in place is all about.

Since support arms has been mentioned in this topic, here's a photo from the same reenactment : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/414007389_5U4Yd-XL.jpg Arms are sloped which is not as noted in the manual or in the pair of period photos just above my present comments.

This photo of arms being presented is about the worst example of presenting arms I've ever seen : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/413141700_VC2NB-XL.jpg No one in this group is doing it in a manner contemplated by the manuals. I'm sure the colonel was really honored by that salute.

I don't mean to be picking on the guys in the photos. The timeliness of the photos plus this discussion is why they caught my attention. There are a surprisingly large number of photos from this reenactment (http://nik.smugmug.com/Events/646795) which have drill errors like this.

Why is it that drill reenactorisms never die when manuals are so readily available?

[Rob]

Here's a link to a photo from a reenactment which occured last weekend in California : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/413143231_aGPMF-XL.jpg

The Reenactor Rest. It took me forever to get my unit to stop doing this. ("But that's how I was always taught.")




Since support arms has been mentioned in this topic, here's a photo from the same reenactment : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/414007389_5U4Yd-XL.jpg Arms are sloped which is not as noted in the manual or in the pair of period photos just above my present comments.

What's an Ordnance guy doing leading the parade?! :confused:




This photo of arms being presented is about the worst example of presenting arms I've ever seen : http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/413141700_VC2NB-XL.jpg No one in this group is doing it in a manner contemplated by the manuals. I'm sure the colonel was really honored by that salute.

Oh, the humanity.

(The colonel probably did not even notice.)

[Doug Cooper]

Bernie, try it without your haversack or canteen, as they did, and if possible with an original firearm, as they did. The reason most reenactors do it "wrong" is because of a well-founded reluctance to have the heavier-barreled repro plop forward onto the ground.

At the risk of sounding heretical, I would opine that the time spent trying to master the correct position of Support Arms with inappropriate ordnance and camp and garrison equipage is perhaps better spent on other improvements to one's impression. Like practicing penmanship. ;-)

I beg to differ. It takes about 5 mins to perfect Support Arms. Canteen, haversack, knapsack have no bearing. Once you do it right, and note how easy it is to move about with a balanced weapon, you will wonder what you were thinking putting the hammer in the crook of your elbow.

Same with Right Shoulder Shift - once you try it with the weapon sloped at the correct angle behind your head, you will wonder why the heck you tried to keep the weapon near vertical balanced on the point of your collar bone.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Doug, if it only took you five minutes to correct your “support arms” problem the awful possibility exists that you still have work to do. :)

Marc Hermann’s well-documented article addresses not only resting the cock on the forearm, but keeping the barrel nearly vertical, and having the butt to the left of your hip. Knapsacks pose no problem, but the haversack and canteen definitely interfere with the placement of the butt to the side (which they don’t in the period photos because in nearly all cases the men aren’t wearing them), and the heavier barrel of the modern repro certainly affects the balance.

Silas, I find your photos of reenactors tend to support this – the shot of men marching at the support shows a surprising degree of uniformity. Given all the other shots from that event, I think this probably results from something other than drill: in this case, the combination of wearing haversack and canteen and having a heavier-barreled piece has led everyone to adopt virtually the same wrong position. I would have added in modern morphology as a factor (as Bernie alludes to), but that skinny fellow in front demonstrates otherwise.

Sometimes I find the question of why folks do things wrong more interesting than the original issue. “Support arms” provides a nice off-setting case to “right shoulder shift.” The “wrong” way of doing the latter proves fairly easy to correct because the proper way to carry a period musket at right shoulder shift makes carrying a repro easier, too. That’s just not the case with “support arms,” and thus the reenactors in the photos above (and nearly all of us, in fact) adopt what amounts to an exaggerated version of what our friends in the VRC did in 1865.

This results from natural conditions, not poor drill. The fellows attempting “present arms” show the results of poor drill: arms every which-way.

Circling back to “rest” I find it interesting that some of the VRC men are doing “parade rest” according to the Regulations, despite the rifle version being the approved form in the Tactics. The Army-Navy Journal, in its December 24, 1864 “FAQ” section says this is a no-no: “The parade-rest of the tactics is used.” But those fellows in the VRC probably hadn’t read the Journal any more closely than most reenactors have read Marc Hermann’s article.

And as sad as the modern reenactors presenting arms are, at least none of them are quite as bad as the fellow Elisha Hunt Rhodes saw when marching into Washington during the “Siege”:

“Many citizens had guns in their hands, and the Treasury clerks were drawn up in front of the Treasury Buildings. One young man had on a straw hat, linen duster, kid gloves, well polished boots and eye glasses. He also had a full set of equipments and a musket. Wishing to be polite to me as I passed he ‘Presented Arms’ with the barrel of his musket to the front. Our boys cheered him in great style.”

But he wasn’t the only fellow mistaken. Rhodes and the Sixth Corps marched up Seventh Street, some blocks east of Treasury, which is on Fifteenth. Those were almost sure to have been Interior Department clerks, standing in front of the Patent Office.

Of course, I could be wrong about any of this, but I would appear to be in reasonably good company.

[tompritchett]

What's an Ordnance guy doing leading the parade?!

Actually I believe that he may acting in as the 2nd SGT for the previous company, although there aappears to be a problem with the covering of the files between the two companies. I am not arguing that you should ever see an Ordnance SGT at company level because you should not. Rather I have seen some 2nd SGTs in less authentic units wearing the Odnance SGT stripes.

[Silas]

For those who might be wondering what's wrong with the photo I linked in a prior posting (and have linked again) (http://nik.smugmug.com/photos/413141700_VC2NB-XL.jpg), here's an illustration and text from Gilham :


http://www.42ndvacok.org/Gilham/figures/fig029.jpg

Present - ARMS.
One time and two motions.

97. First motion. (Fig. 29.) Turn the piece with the left hand, the lock out, and seize the small of the stock at the same time with the right hand, the piece perpendicular and detached from the shoulder, the left hand remaining under the butt.

Second motion. Complete the turning inwards of the piece, so as to bring it erect before the centre of the body, the rammer to the front the right hand under and against the guard; seize it smartly at the same time with the left hand just above the lock, the thumb extended along the barrel and on the stock, the left fore-arm resting on the body without constraint, and the hand at the height of the elbow.

For the Casey-ites and Hardee-ites out there, here's the text from Casey's SoS which is identical to Hardee. Although the method to get to the present differs from Gilham, the end result should look identical to Gilham :



Present - ARMS.
One time and two motions.

150. (First motion.) With the right hand, bring the piece erect before the centre of the body, the rammer to the front; at the same time seize the piece with the left hand half-way between the guide sight and lower band, the thumb extended along the barrel and against the stock, the forearm horizontal and resting against the body, the hand as high as the elbow.

151. (Second motion.) Grasp the small of the stock with the right hand, below and against the guard.

Here's a link to a scanned version of Casey's manual which shows a soldier doing nothing like what the reenactors were doing last weekend :
http://books.google.com/books?id=cmoDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&q=present#PPA38-IA4,M1

When I see that other thread about the evolution of the hobby and think about how poorly fundamental drill is executed, I wonder if we've evolved or devolved.

[huntdaw]

There's a lot more wrong with that photo than just the way they are doing present arms.

[Rob]

Regarding Support Arms while on the move, I have a photo of a Missouri regiment marching in column of eight (eight abreast), and no one's rifle is tilted rearward more than five degrees at the most. At least two of the rifles are actually leaning forward.

When I first learned how to do this position correctly, the barrel would always fall inwards and clunk me in the head. Fixing the bayonet, which shifts the weight outwards (to the left) helped. The canteen and haversack must be pushed around towards your back (where they should be anyway) to clear the stock.

It's not really that difficult.

[Pvt Schnapps]

When I see that other thread about the evolution of the hobby and think about how poorly fundamental drill is executed, I wonder if we've evolved or devolved.

I'm hoping the Fort Stevens event comes off next year and I get to fulfill my long-time dream of raising a company of government clerks. Then you should finally see a reenacting unit every bit as good as the originals ;)

[flattop32355]

When I see that other thread about the evolution of the hobby and think about how poorly fundamental drill is executed, I wonder if we've evolved or devolved.

What do you mean "we"? :confused: ;)

"We" also includes many men and units that pay attention to proper drill, have an idea how to manoeuver, and care about their appearance and activities as faux soldiers.

Yeah, there are yahoos. There are also some decent impressions out there within the general reenacting population at the unit level.