Flags Seen at Chickamauga

[TheColorBearer]

Nice pics. The guy I talked to from Georgia was right, they desperatly need my flags down south. This Event was set in 1863 correct? but yet they were using a 1st National Confederate flag. I wish I could sew the flags at a faster rate but I cannot.

In those days one of the best ways of communication was with your Flag. When I go to events and see Infantry marching with a 41" Battle flag from a distance I would take that as Calvary, or the Calvary using a 31" Battle flag and I think it is Artillery. The Flags a person or persons display should be correct, so many spend years on research and many dollar's on equipment only to show up with the most horrible flag set you have ever seen. And when those folks are spotted out on the field or by a passer by the first thing that is seen is their flag.

[sbl]

Todd,

Neat commercial!

[RJSamp]

Nice pics. The guy I talked to from Georgia was right, they desperatly need my flags down south. This Event was set in 1863 correct? but yet they were using a 1st National Confederate flag. I wish I could sew the flags at a faster rate but I cannot.

In those days one of the best ways of communication was with your Flag. When I go to events and see Infantry marching with a 41" Battle flag from a distance I would take that as Calvary, or the Calvary using a 31" Battle flag and I think it is Artillery. The Flags a person or persons display should be correct, so many spend years on research and many dollar's on equipment only to show up with the most horrible flag set you have ever seen. And when those folks are spotted out on the field or by a passer by the first thing that is seen is their flag.

I think it's neat you can pick off a 41" battle flag vs a 31" battle flag at a half a mile.....no way my 53 year old eyes can spot that.....

[TheColorBearer]

I think it's neat you can pick off a 41" battle flag vs a 31" battle flag at a half a mile.....no way my 53 year old eyes can spot that.....


When you have made as many of them as I have you will have the same ability.


And it's no commercial just the facts. The pictures speak for themselves.

None of my statements in any way shape or form were meant to put down that event or the people at it, just the flag choices they made.

[RJSamp]

When you have made as many of them as I have you will have the same ability.


Point Taken! I can identify most bugles at a glance, at a distance, partially covered up, in a poor photograph.....

Reminds me of the Indians who could spot a lame horse, or their horses, out of herd of 20,000 ..... with just a simple glance.

[NC5thcav]

When I go to events and see Infantry marching with a 41" Battle flag from a distance I would take that as Calvary, or the Calvary using a 31" Battle flag and I think it is Artillery. The Flags a person or persons display should be correct, so many spend years on research and many dollar's on equipment only to show up with the most horrible flag set you have ever seen. And when those folks are spotted out on the field or by a passer by the first thing that is seen is their flag.

While I agree that units should use appropriatly sized flags, sometimes the size could be different than the regulations. The regulations did spell out sizes for the different branches of service in the ANV, but very few that I have researched actually conform to regulations. Most NC ANV battle flags seem too have been in the neighborhood of 46" to 49", and most were not actually square, but that wouldn't be noticed. Some good examples are these.

52nd NC-47"X50"
55th NC-47 1/2"X46"
42nd NC-48"X51"
35th NC-48"X50"
30th NC-47"X51"
28th NC-50"X49"
24th NC-48"X48"

The first number is the hoist, the second is the fly. All of these flags are in current museum collections, so the measurements are accurate. Also, the square battleflags were predominatly ANV issue, although they did see service in other areas, such as the AoT. Some units were also issued flags sized for other branches of service. The 58th NC, in the AoT, has two surviving battleflags. Both are Augusta Clothing Depot issues. One is infantry sized and measures 36"X51" and the second is an artillery sized flag that measures 32"X38". Both of these flags are in the collestion of the North Carolina Museum of History. Another one is the battleflag of the 5th NC cavalry. It is a 46"X48 1/2" Richmond Depot issue.
This is another case when unit specific details can vary. Now would an inch or two realy make that much difference? Probably not, especialy for a generic use flag. But if you are trying to copy a unit specific flag, sometimes a little digging will surprise you.

[FloridaConfederate]

Now would an inch or two realy make that much difference?

It's not all about kit.

Good acting can more than make up for a lack of inches.

[NC5thcav]

This Event was set in 1863 correct? but yet they were using a 1st National Confederate flag.

Lee's order forbiding any flags but the square battleflags only applied to the ANV. The 1st Nationals were still being used by some units in the AoT, along with other older designs like the Hardee pattern, Polk pattern, and McCown pattern flags. The 39th NC carried a McCown pattern battleflag at Chickamauga. There is also an ANV 1st National that belonged to the 34th NC that survives. It doesn't have a capture date, but its capture number puts it among those surrendered at Appomatox, so regiments may have ignored Lee's order to give up their old flags.

[TheColorBearer]

Lee's order forbiding any flags but the square battleflags only applied to the ANV. The 1st Nationals were still being used by some units in the AoT, along with other older designs like the Hardee pattern, Polk pattern, and McCown pattern flags. The 39th NC carried a McCown pattern battleflag at Chickamauga. There is also an ANV 1st National that belonged to the 34th NC that survives. It doesn't have a capture date, but its capture number puts it among those surrendered at Appomatox, so regiments may have ignored Lee's order to give up their old flags.


The flag in question is a National Flag, this is the flag that fly's at the very top of any pole or staff. They did not stray from this fact. If a 1st National flag was captured at appomatox then it was on someone's person not on the pole. The government was very strict about this.

[TheColorBearer]

This is another case when unit specific details can vary. Now would an inch or two realy make that much difference? Probably not, especialy for a generic use flag. But if you are trying to copy a unit specific flag, sometimes a little digging will surprise you.

I wasn't referring to AoT flags in those pics. I was referring to the ANV flags as there was an ANV group present at Chickamauga ie: Longstreet's corps.

I have done more than a little digging sir, I have done a lot of traveling, and hours of research on different types of flags, from just about every theatre. In the end the description of the flag was written down on paper and it was up to the flag maker to go from that. I was not only making comments on the flags at that event but also at the way that they were made. Sewing machines are good for some things but never a Civil War flag, nor are brass gromets.

[NC5thcav]

The 1st National at Appomatox very well could have been kept with the regiment's baggage or something, but they were other non-battleflags used by the ANV after 1863. The 13th NC had a 2nd National with battle honors captured in battle at the Wilderness, the 21st NC had a 2nd National captured in battle at Sayler's Creek, and the 42nd NC was issued a 2nd National after May of 1863. Also several NC regiments had NC state flags captured in battle after the orders not to display anything but the battleflag. These include:

2nd NC-Chancellorsville
35th NC-Petersburg
47th NC-Sutherland Station(April 2, 1865)
46th NC-Petersburg(recovered from picket line by 1st NJ)

So for such a strict order, there are at least seven regiments that did not obey orders from North Carolina alone.

[NC5thcav]

I have done more than a little digging sir, I have done a lot of traveling, and hours of research on different types of flags, from just about every theatre. In the end the description of the flag was written down on paper and it was up to the flag maker to go from that. I was not only making comments on the flags at that event but also at the way that they were made. Sewing machines are good for some things but never a Civil War flag, nor are brass gromets.

Relaxe, it's nothing personal. I was just pointing out some other research that you may not have seen.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I wasn't referring to AoT flags in those pics. I was referring to the ANV flags as there was an ANV group present at Chickamauga ie: Longstreet's corps.

I have done more than a little digging sir, I have done a lot of traveling, and hours of research on different types of flags, from just about every theatre. In the end the description of the flag was written down on paper and it was up to the flag maker to go from that. I was not only making comments on the flags at that event but also at the way that they were made. Sewing machines are good for some things but never a Civil War flag, nor are brass gromets.
Although I would whole heartedly agree about the no brass grommets on flags, there are indeed machine sewn original flags out there.. I've viewed no less than 20 original Confederate regimental battle flags that were machine sewn (Atlanta History Center, State Museum of Florida, Museum of the Confederacy, and a couple of others that I can't remember until I look for my notes). You can't put a firm rule out that all flags should be handsewn if there are machine sewn examples. I would agree that many, if not most CS flags were handsewn, but there are many examples of contract flags sewn by machine. I won't even have to mention the numbers of Federal flags that were machine sewn, as there are more than I could count. The sheer volume of flags needed by the Union neccesitated the rapid need for flags, and this made the use of machine sewing necessary.

[TheColorBearer]

Your post is not in a tone for discussion. Ross mentioned about machine sewn flags he had seen, and where he had seen them; he was not being rude or calling you out. And how do you reply back? "Got proof?" That is not a form of discussion. That's baiting.


[deletion - THP]

Let me remind you that I am a flag maker and I am strongly against the use of sewing machines being used for flag making. In the northern states I may agree with the usage of the machine but not in the southern area's as flags were more than something you bought at the local store, there was a high amount of honor involved in carrying them as well as making them, so when someone says what was said that person was stating a fact or what they had seen they should have no problem putting up proof, as I was told when stating facts that it was customary to do so. Ross has been on this board a longer than I and should already know this.

deletion - THP

[John1862]

In the northern states I may agree with the usage of the machine but not in the southern area's as flags were more than something you bought at the local store, there was a high amount of honor involved in carrying them as well as making them,

Exactl...wait, no. Not at all. You're right though, flags made for the Union were just disposable pieces of cloth that weren't worth defending. I wonder what the 10 men (out of 11 total) killed and wounded in the 1st N.Y.S.V's color guard at Glendale would say about honor.

Are you seriously saying that there was a lesser amount of honor involved in production and display of Federal flags?

You're also saying the use of a sewing machine implies the same?

I'd love to see some proof to your claim(s).

[FloridaConfederate]

CS flags were documented to have been produced in Richmond and Stanton under the clothing bureau.

There is ample support of widespread sewing machine use in Richmond and its associated garment production.

The myth of a lack of sewing machines in the Southland is just that... a myth.

While I agree about a 1st National at 1863 battle.... I wont post anything to support this. How do the lefties on this board say it.."trust me"

This is from Chickamauga NMP last Saturday

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/ready.jpg

[TheColorBearer]

Exactl...wait, no. Not at all. You're right though, flags made for the Union were just disposable pieces of cloth that weren't worth defending. I wonder what the 10 men (out of 11 total) killed and wounded in the 1st N.Y.S.V's color guard at Glendale would say about honor.

Are you seriously saying that there was a lesser amount of honor involved in production and display of Federal flags?

You're also saying the use of a sewing machine implies the same?

I'd love to see some proof to your claim(s).

In the case of federal flags 65% or more were made with a machine, the stripes, and the trim, as 35% were made totally by hand.

Ask yourself this much sir:

Would you want to march off to battle with a flag some stranger made, or one made by the local towns people and people of that county you live in?

[FloridaConfederate]

Yours truly, w/ original Parrot Rifle #23 assigned to Michigan's Loomis Battery which participated at Chickamauga and its owner. The gun was captured by CS forces and recaptured the next day.

This gentleman brought it down from Michigan to be part of the LH. Very cool.


http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/origparrott.jpg

[tompritchett]

I am locking this thread down for the time being until I have time to go through it and do some serious pruning. During that time, I would suggest that certain individuals calm down or else it will get closed again very quickly.

[TheColorBearer]

how's your painting?



Here is a version of the georgia state seal I just finished for a customer. I also have a picture of the original.


http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/000georgiaflag8.jpg



http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/georgiastateflag.jpg

[tompritchett]

Todd you really need to pay attention and listen to Mistuh Tom and when he says theres another thread of you bess be listenin.

You are so right.

As you may have noticed, all the flag posts from the Pictures at Chickamauga thread have been moved down here into this closed thread. This will be the last move. The next round WILL be deleted instead.

With all these additional posts to sort through, it has now delayed the time that this thread will be re-opened as I now have even more posts to review as I clean up this thread. Therefore, gentlemen, back off this topic for the next day or two until everyone calms down and can be civil. It will be re-opened soon but if I have to close it again it will be for good.

[tompritchett]

Mr. Burnett, I would like to point out to you several items in Mr. Lamoreaux's response to your post. First, in regards to documentation, he states that he has seen "no less than 20" Confederate flags at various museums, several of which he lists. Second, while he "challenged" your statement that no Confederate flag should ever be machine sewn because of those examples, he did agree that the large majority of the flags were hand-sewn. Therefore, if one was wanting to do a Confederate flag, or a specific unit flag, and had no documentation stating otherwise, it would still be PEC to have it hand-sewn. As far as the issue with Federal flags, I will not address at all.

[tompritchett]

I am now reopening this thread for general discussions of flags as well as discussion of the flags seen at Chickamauga in terms of their historical appropriateness (e.g. why a 1rst National instead of a 2nd National). I have deleted the majority of the original posts in this thread mostly because in one way or another they were continuing the fight. For those of you who were trying to cool things down, I do apologize for the removal of your posts but allowing them to stand what only risk restarting the fight. I hope that you can understand. Also, please next time any of you see a thread starting to get out of control to the point that you feel that you have to interject, send an Alert. When I log in as Moderator, I am not always checking ever thread, especially if I feel that the topic is a safe one unlikely to generate controversy.

P.S. For all viewers, given the fact that many of these posts were moved from another thread and the many deletions, I would recommend using the Linear Display Mode.

[Lwhite64]

Bragg's HQ flag that was captured at Missionary Ridge, two months after Chickamauga was a 1st National.

Lee

[FloridaConfederate]

Bragg's HQ flag that was captured at Missionary Ridge, two months after Chickamauga was a 1st National.

Lee

I have said many times: Lee White is THE man. Thanks I always learn from your posts.

Had a great time in your fine park last weekend.

Chris

Pvt. Robert Kite
1st FL Cav (Dismounted) / Trigg Decendant
Chickamauga Vet - Captured at Missionary Ridge

[Lwhite64]

Part of the reason that the 2nd National was'nt adopted rapidly in the late spring and summer of 1863 was that the Confederacy suffered a bunting shortage, so except for a few 2nd Nationals made early in the spring, there just wasnt enough material to go around. Im pretty sure that the ANV HQ flags at the time of Gettysburg were 1st Nationals as well because of this, so Longstreet's HQ flag at the time of Chickamauga would most likely have been a 1st National as well.

[Lwhite64]

To add, http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCsbr.htm

Note: This website is one of the best sources for information on Confederate flags anywhere, the late scholars Howard Madaus and Deveraux Cannon were largely responsible for the contents.

Lee

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I'm not sure people want to be confused with the facts Lee. It usually just adds to personal attacks and demands of "got proof?" By the way, like Chris Rideout, thanks for all that you do with your research. You are indeed The Man when it comes to Chickamauga.

[tompritchett]

I'm not sure people want to be confused with the facts Lee.

To be honest, I had always thought the 2nd National had officially been adopted earlier than that given the problems with the 1rst National which were seen at First Manassas. I knew about the progression of Confederate National Flags but had never paid close attention to the actual dates. I learned something new today.

[TheColorBearer]

I'm not sure people want to be confused with the facts Lee. It usually just adds to personal attacks and demands of "got proof?" By the way, like Chris Rideout, thanks for all that you do with your research. You are indeed The Man when it comes to Chickamauga.

So you had no proof then?


Thank you Lwhite64 for providing the proof that others cannot provide, you have done a valuble service this day.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

So you had no proof then?


Thank you Lwhite64 for providing the proof that others cannot provide, you have done a valuble service this day.
No, actually I didn't, which is why I didn't comment on that issue when it came up. Since I know there are people far wiser than me for certain minutae of the war, I let them speak and not make wise cracks. Lee White has worked for years at the Chickamauga Battlefield Park, and is known as one of the foremost experts on that battle, and many other aspects of the war leading up to and following that battle. I speak up only on matters that I have proof and known facts, and I do not use conjecture, artist's liberties, or stray from the historical facts or items. People get quite tired of defensive, insecure, historically ignorant folks who jump on everyone, bully their way around, and try to sell pieces of "fiction" or items that didn't exist but look good. People get tired of folks who make items from drawings of original items (page 124 D, color plate, "Flags of the Civil War" by Philip Katcher), instead of original items. People get tired of folks who use incorrect materials to save money or please customers, when the correct materials are readily available and easy to get. People most of all get tired of bullies, who, when shown facts that contradict their own, get defensive and blame everyone else but themselves.

[tompritchett]

Gentlemen, let's calm down and not get testy with each other. I would suggest that this exchange on this particular subject end before I have to start deleting again.

[jademonkey]

Ross,

You know I have your back on this, but there is that old quote to the effect of
"be careful when you argue with a fool b/c someone walking by may not know the difference"
On second thought, in this case it should be pretty obvious. Nevermind.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Well Garrett, I've said my piece on this. You know me, as do many other folks on this site that attend history-heavy events. Its obvious that I'm not going to back down when it comes to real history, as I've spent too many years researching material culture. I came on this site, as I've said ad nauseum, to share information and to learn. I have indeed done both. I've made some mistakes that were corrected, and if anyone cares to look into my posts, you'll find a few apologies along the way, thats for sure. But now when I have to take time to defend myself to folks who could care less about the facts, I get kicked around, have my integrity questioned, even when I didn't comment on a particular thing. That ends tonight. I came on this forum defending my work, and I'll go out doing the same thing. I'll share a paraphrased quote for my attacker, from a great American - Its better to stay silent and be thought of as a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt. I'll be over at the AC if anyone needs me.

[PVT.THIB]

Oh great guys! Thanks for running off another knowledgable mind here on these boards. Some will never learn. Ross, I back you 110% buddy.

[tompritchett]

Oh great guys! Thanks for running off another knowledgable mind here on these boards. Some will never learn. Ross, I back you 110% buddy.

Actually things may not be so bleak afterall. In the last hour, Colorbearer was banned from the forum and Ross has been so informed. Normally, I do not make announcements about such bans but, given the negative impact that his combative style was having on many of our users, this time I am making an exception. The contributions of well knowledgeable individuals of people like Ross are assets this forum can ill afford to lose.

[PVT.THIB]

Thank you Mr. Pritchett!!!

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Oh great guys! Thanks for running off another knowledgable mind here on these boards. Some will never learn. Ross, I back you 110% buddy.
Thanks for the support Jason. I have made alot of friends here and in the field, and many of you have stepped out in public and even more behind the scenes and I appreciate that. Nobody has chased me off, but I'll be pretty detailed in future posts with references and data to avoid some issues, and I'll probably wait a little and use some temperance (not usually in my vocabulary). I even appreciate the couple of guys who emailed me and said I was an arrogant SOB, because they at least have always had open communication to me and didn't hide behind misguided issues or faulty information. When you are as passionate about this period as I am, things get heated so I apologize to all if you've thought some of these exchanges were a waste of netspace.

[tompritchett]

Thank you Mr. Pritchett!!!

Thank the Provost as he is the one that did the banning - not that I disagreed with his action at all.

[Radar]

Actually things may not be so bleak afterall. In the last hour, Colorbearer was banned from the forum and Ross has been so informed. Normally, I do not make announcements about such bans but, given the negative impact that his combative style was having on many of our users, this time I am making an exception. The contributions of well knowledgeable individuals of people like Ross are assets this forum can ill afford to lose.

Thank you and the provost. There has beengood information posted, but Colorbearer tokk offense at anything posted, as you well know. I guess he was running for Mr, Defensive of the decade. We all disagree, but he wasn't fun anymore,

[GaWildcat]

Glad thats over. I for one was getting tired of the mantra of "Prove it!" even when good documentation was offered. In fact, I was close to leaving. I know, if you don't like the thread, don't read it, but it was a train wreck, you couldn't help but look. One thing is for sure, I had to fight to hold my tongue and risk the chance of being banned myself!

[indguard]

I am always amazed at the "This is the ONLY way they did it" claim. It is never a good idea to claim 100% exclusivity on a thing -- not just in civil war reenacting, but in just about anything in life. There are very few things in our hobby that there are NO exceptions to. One should rather argue that it was the "common" way or the "majority" way and since we often look to portray the "common" it is best to go that'a way (and we always have the specific impressions of that very localized time in history, too).

Anyway, a little less militantism is best, don't you think?(Funny to say we want less militantism in a military hobby!)

WTH
The RodneyKing Mess