Correct shade of Butternut

[Danny]

What's the correct shade of Butternut, and what shades must be excluded?

I've been advised to build a Confederate kit.

Dan Wykes

[FloridaConfederate]

Depends on what army. CS had different regulations for element faded vegetable-dyed garment colors for their different armies.

Tuscaloosa or Richmond gray is accurate.

Chris Rideout

[Huck Finn]

Any explanation here cannot do the question justice. Les Jensen's epistle can take you far. Echos of Glory will help. There are many others. Remember, the uniforms were worn in weather and tended to fade.

[Marc Shaffer]

... Cadet Grey and Butternut Brown goes a long way to explain Confederate Uniforms.

[indguard]

There is no "correct shade" of butternut OR gray. So, pick what you thinks looks kewel. They did have proper dyes, of course. They wouldn't have anything that looks completely synthetic, granted. But, there was never any time when colors were so regulated by the CS government (or when they were physically able to assure a uniform dye color, I should say). On top of that dye batches change color as they are used, so even uniforms being made new at the same time can change in color form the first one to the last one.

WTH
The I'mnotcoloredinbutternut Mess

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As shared...

There is Butternut (White Walnut) and then there is "butternut," meaning it is more of a "concept" than a "color."

As a vegetable dyestuff, the bark and the nut rinds would produce a light yellow to a darker brown depending upon, but not limited to, such variables as:

1. individual tree
2. type of mordant used in the dye bath
3. purity of the mordant used in the dye bath
4. concentration of the mordant
5. the mordanting process
6. purity of the dyestuff
7. concentration or intentisty of the dye
8. individual characteristics of the fabric to be dyed whether wool wool and cotton blend, and variations in the textiles themselves and how they were made
9. temperature of the dye bath
10. length of time in the dye bath
11. skill of the dyer in nailing Nos. 1-10
12. amount of exposure and weathering of the finished dyed fabric when made into uniforms and used
13. length of time uniform items had been used
14. Etc., etc.,

CHS

[NC5thcav]

Keep in mind that most original "butternut" uniforms today started life gray. The tanish colors are the result of oxidation of the natural dyes. I have a Ben Tart jacket that was gray a year ago but is almost khaki now. You can still see gray inside the jacket and even some where the buttons cover the fabric when buttoned.

[Jim Mayo]

If you want a butternut uniform, buy a gray one from a vendor of your choice who makes uniforms from naturally dyed cloth. Wear it a year in the sun and dust and presto! you will have a butternut uniform the authentic way. There is an article on Columbus Depot uniforms that has pictures of original jackets and shows how the they faded. Take a look.

http://authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/cdjacket.htm

[Phil]

Like I said in another thread, don't take a naturally dyed garment and let it sit in the sun for a month on your porch. It'll fade just fine as you wear it.

[Danny]

Like I said in another thread, don't take a naturally dyed garment and let it sit in the sun for a month on your porch. It'll fade just fine as you wear it.

Phil, here's the problem with that. It's too vague and attempts to make what is subjective into something objective.

But for the rest, thanks I've a got a good idea where to go with this.

Dan Wykes

[Spinster]

Alright, lets make that statment plainer.

If you hang a naturally dyed garment on the porch in the sun, in an attempt to more quickly achieve the sunfadeing/oxidation that is the hallmark of butternut, it will fade in a funny pattern, unlike that achieved in normal wear.

Some fellers got some pretty interesting results, albeit by accident, with clothes left on the porch during the Ivan backwash though.....

[Mint Julep]

Phil, here's the problem with that. It's too vague and attempts to make what is subjective into something objective.

But for the rest, thanks I've a got a good idea where to go with this.

Dan Wykes

What is vague about that? Do this and don't do that. How simple can it be?

[Danny]

What is vague about that? Do this and don't do that. How simple can it be?

Mint -

I guess you're right about that. It wasn't quite as specific as the prior suggestions, that's all. Thanks to Terri for the helpful clarification.

The whole point to the question was that I didn't want to get caught wearing some apparently ridiculous shade of butternut Reb gear. (I'm reminded of the ridiculous shades of "sky blue" Federal-issue pants reproductions I've seen).

Dan Wykes

[Memphis]

From some points of view this thread is a continuation of other Danny Asks threads from the past several years. Old Cremona would agree, if the old banjo conversations on other forums were any real indication of what was to come. At least the questions are thought provoking even if they do not settle anything at all.

Tell us about the lesser known Sweeney brother buried at Appomattox. That is a nice story for the music enthusiasts.

[FloridaConfederate]

From some points of view this thread is a continuation of other Danny Asks threads from the past several years. Old Cremona would agree, if the old banjo conversations on other forums were any real indication of what was to come. At least the questions are thought provoking even if they do not settle anything at all.

Tell us about the lesser known Sweeney brother buried at Appomattox. That is a nice story for the music enthusiasts.

Thus why Danny gets answered accordingly.

[Danny]

Yeah, too bad about those off-topic personal comments...

But back to topic. Did I mention I was hoping to get one jacket that could cover for both CS artillery and CS infantry - equivelent of a Federal sack coat... possible?

Dan Wykes

[Jim Mayo]

Yeah, too bad about those off-topic personal comments...

But back to topic. Did I mention I was hoping to get one jacket that could cover for both CS artillery and CS infantry - equivelent of a Federal sack coat... possible?

Dan Wykes
Use whatever type CS jacket you have with eagle buttons if the button letter "I" and "A" bothers you. See the page below for supporting evidence.http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip.html

I also suspect that when CS jackets were issued to artillery units, if the jackets did not have artillery buttons they were issued anyway.

[reb64]

Mint -

I guess you're right about that. It wasn't quite as specific as the prior suggestions, that's all. Thanks to Terri for the helpful clarification.

The whole point to the question was that I didn't want to get caught wearing some apparently ridiculous shade of butternut Reb gear. (I'm reminded of the ridiculous shades of "sky blue" Federal-issue pants reproductions I've seen).

Dan Wykes

Of course there is a exception to the rule somewhere, but the incorrect shade is those permanently and purposely camel tan dyed jackets and trousers made of thick wool on sutler row. they used to be very popular years ago, now considered farby generally. period uniforms ran brand new from undyed white to dark brown and could be considered butternut by some accounts, but the main notion of butternut comes from the veggie or other naturally dyed grey unifroms that fade in the sun to kakhi, tan etc. depending on when your impression takes place the uniform may not yet be "butternut" if new issued, or if made with brown warp threads in the material it may come to you as butternut. so its a very debatable thing to ask what is the right color, but certainly we can know the wrong color, and thats the ones purposely dyed to look camel-tan colored.

[FloridaConfederate]

Reachin out to ya Danny' boy to show there ain't no hard feelings here

There are also ample references to iron copperas (more Texas and Western in nature) dyed garments which yields, among a palate of other colors depending on mordant, a brown paper grocery grocery bag color.

There are indeed variations to the "butternut" color besides fading as I alluded to in my smirky post in #2.

As to your do all CS jacket. A good (accurate) jean, satinet or cassemere civilian sack coat, not only covers everywhere, any time and any event. ..It is WAAAAAY under represented in the Stream and gives you a civilian option for your Sam Sweeny gig.


My second reco is a good frock of the same materials...covers anywhere.

I mean this with no disrespect, really, but at the events and attitude to you seem to take from your posts does it really matter ? Just get a decent gray roundabout (used is good) and call it a day.

[Danny]

...As to your do all CS jacket. A good (accurate) jean, satinet or cassemere civilian sack coat, not only covers everywhere, any time and any event. ..It is WAAAAAY under represented in the Stream and gives you a civilian option for your Sam Sweeny gig...

Chris -

My understanding is that Sam was formally enlisted, and that in Stewart's staff he likely wore a military uniform. But if you get any info. on that let's pursue it in the (someday) music category on this forum.

Dan Wykes

[Bill_Cross]

The whole point to the question was that I didn't want to get caught wearing some apparently ridiculous shade of butternut Reb gear. (I'm reminded of the ridiculous shades of "sky blue" Federal-issue pants reproductions I've seen).
The difference is that most dyes back then very natural or vegetable. Curt's post lays out the variations. The Federals tended to have "better" production facilities. Indigo, while a natural ingredient, does not have the same unstable properties as Sumac or other vegetable-based dyes. Hence Federal uniforms often look the same as they did 150 years ago (other than wear).

As has been stated, purchase a good garment from an authentic accurate sutler, wear it in the field, and within a season you will look fine. My RD II jacket, for example, from Becky Nall's Cotton City Tailors continues to evolve
in color, yet always looks "right."