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Ol'Hickory
07-04-2006, 11:32 AM
How do you make the springfield rifled musket paper cartridges?

I have tried unsuccessfully to make some for sometime, have been using normal paper (I know, i know..well, I have to make do!)

Footslogger
07-04-2006, 11:39 AM
Stu
All that will be dealt with during your recruit training with the VC mate, we have two methods, the usual blank rounds and rounds from Patrick Reardons fine publication making Cartridges published by the watchdog and all profits going to preservation, (quick plug) depending on the event.
Regards

cblodg
07-04-2006, 11:41 AM
How do you make the springfield rifled musket paper cartridges?

I have tried unsuccessfully to make some for sometime, have been using normal paper (I know, i know..well, I have to make do!)

There was a site out there that did once show how to make the cartridge tubes. He started with a trapezoid shape paper and rolled them over a dowel that was rougly the same size as the bore for his musket. He slid the bottom of the tube down the dowel, extending less than an inch below, crimped and twisten the excess paper, then pushed it up inside the tube.

That's a pretty poor description on my part, but then again I only tried a few times, most of the time I get my cartridges from my unit, and we buy them pre-rolled.

Chris

Ol'Hickory
07-04-2006, 11:42 AM
Oh okay awsome

I thought it'd be good to get a picture of my cartridge box open with a few cartridges in there for a friend..oh and i'm afriad chris does not want to make it..or cant but he'll come down over the weekend

theknapsack
07-04-2006, 08:59 PM
Here's a great article on round-making. (http://members.aol.com/wis33rd/33articles/authcart.html)

Cheers,

bob 125th nysvi
07-04-2006, 09:01 PM
kit you get from most sutlers has the rolling instructions in it.

The secret is getting the dowl the right diameter. Sometimes tape will do it.

I use the authentics for living history but paper ladies for the reenactments because I can carry a lot more of them (88 x 65g charges with tins in my cartridge box). Reason?

There ain't no supply train to draw more from after I leave the parking so I got to carry enough powder to make it through 2-4 actions. That's one place where the real guys had a leg up on us. Someone else is responsible for making sure he had enough ammo.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

VaTrooper
07-04-2006, 09:31 PM
88 rounds with the tins in?

AZReenactor
07-04-2006, 11:06 PM
Try these excellent pages by the Lazy Jacks Mess:
http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm
http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge2.htm (http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge2.htm)

Bill_Cross
07-05-2006, 12:25 PM
I use ... paper ladies for the reenactments because I can carry a lot more of them (88 x 65g charges with tins in my cartridge box)... That's one place where the real guys had a leg up on us. Someone else is responsible for making sure he had enough ammo.
There is a safety issue of you carrying that much black powder in your cartridge box. I'm glad you have tins, since I know some events don't care whether you do or not. THEY carried tins for safety's sake, since a round going off by accident would be less-dangerous in a tin.

But one thing I question is the amount of powder that gets burned. The AVERAGE number of rounds per minute was 3, but that does not extrapolate out over a large amount of time, mostly due to fouling, but also to target selection. 100 rounds was what most of THEM carried on campaign, and the idea that you'd need so many rounds makes me question if your group is putting out powder in modern quantities.

Most accounts you read mention that fouling problem, so the pressure for us to "pour it on, boys," is just another reenactorism.

bob 125th nysvi
07-05-2006, 07:32 PM
88 rounds with the tins in?

65g ain't much of a charge. Remember the standard load was 40 rounds with more powder and bullets.

Small charges and small cartridges.

But don't you fret VA it won't take me that many rounds to knock you off the horse.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

indguard
07-05-2006, 07:37 PM
I cut down brown paper lunch bags for my paper. It is thin enough to rip with the teeth but thick enough not to easily fall apart.

I use the trapazoid shape mentioned above, but use a brass tube the size of the bore to roll with instead of a solid dowel rod. That way, I can twist and tuck in the bottom which makes for a tube that never breaks in my box.

Then I finish with folding the wing and tucking it inside the body of the tube. I do NOT leave the wings loose because it is too easy for the cartridge to become unraveled that way.

bob 125th nysvi
07-05-2006, 07:46 PM
There is a safety issue of you carrying that much black powder in your cartridge box. I'm glad you have tins, since I know some events don't care whether you do or not. THEY carried tins for safety's sake, since a round going off by accident would be less-dangerous in a tin.

But one thing I question is the amount of powder that gets burned. The AVERAGE number of rounds per minute was 3, but that does not extrapolate out over a large amount of time, mostly due to fouling, but also to target selection. 100 rounds was what most of THEM carried on campaign, and the idea that you'd need so many rounds makes me question if your group is putting out powder in modern quantities.

Most accounts you read mention that fouling problem, so the pressure for us to "pour it on, boys," is just another reenactorism.

The AOP counting its supply train was easily capable of transporting more than 100 rounds per man on campaign.

One thing that really doesn't get simulated very well in reenacting is logisitics long term. Yeah a regiment may have had 60 rounds per man on hand but they could replenish from the divisional or corp supply train. We can't.

So if you figure 4 engagements a weekend (not counting drill and picket) and average 20 rounds an engagement you're actually firing time at max fire is only about 7 minutes an engagement.

Our officers almost NEVER allow individual fire. Its always volley and by Sunday afternoon a lot of those volleys are very ragged due to lack of powder.

As I see it there are two ways to solve this "reenactorism" have the officers limit men to 40 or fewer rounds when they move out and then have a "supply" in camp to simulate being resupplied or not.

The issue then becomes are the officers willing to pull units out of the line (or retreat) when the unit is out of ammo.

What is they taught us in ROTC - Amatures study tactics, professionals worry about logistics.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
esperance, NY

tompritchett
07-06-2006, 12:27 AM
The issue then becomes are the officers willing to pull units out of the line (or retreat) when the unit is out of ammo.

Or event coordinators actually building such a scenario in their event. Personally, I would find that to be a challenging and unique experience. Would not necessarily need wagons or such just a pre-determined resupply point or even better a pack mule with ammo boxes well behind the lines.

Chuck A Luck
07-06-2006, 08:49 AM
I cut down brown paper lunch bags for my paper. It is thin enough to rip with the teeth but thick enough not to easily fall apart.

You should consider using the brown paper rolls sold at large hardware stores/outlets or painting supply stores called "painters masking paper." It comes in rolls 6 or 8 inches wide, and is almost perfect for rolling cartridges. Good color, thin, yet not too thin. And you get a true mass quantity of it for a very cheap price (IIRC, about $3 for a many yards of it). I highly recommend it.

The 8" wide roll, in fact, works very well, since most cartridges call for them being 4" wide, so two fit side by side. Very easy to cut. No more tearing paper bags apart.

Try it, you'll like it!

andysmith1989
07-06-2006, 10:52 AM
Here are some tubes that I make.

http://www.geocities.com/andysmith1989/sapcrc.html

Footslogger
07-06-2006, 12:27 PM
At least you've got something to read, during the lull's,

Ol'Hickory
07-06-2006, 01:06 PM
Wow thanks.

I'll have a look at some of these sites and instructions and may try them out and see if I get anything that resembles a cartridge

AZReenactor
07-06-2006, 01:16 PM
Here are some tubes that I make.

http://www.geocities.com/andysmith1989/sapcrc.html
I suppose they are functional but aren't very authentic, are they?

bob 125th nysvi
07-08-2006, 08:10 PM
Or event coordinators actually building such a scenario in their event. Personally, I would find that to be a challenging and unique experience. Would not necessarily need wagons or such just a pre-determined resupply point or even better a pack mule with ammo boxes well behind the lines.

Tom I got enough to do without having to have my mule tagging along.

He's a good boy but I'm not sure how he'd take to massed musket fire.

Still it is a really good idea and I'd like to see the officers take more of a lead in improving realism on all levels. Not just field command and drill.

AND I'm staying a private. It's a hard earned priviledge to be able to complain without having any authority to change things.

Besides with all the stripes, we're running out of privates in the field. We got enough on the muster but in the field is another story.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

ps: If they asked I'd at least take him to the spring drill day to see how he felt about the whole thing.

bob 125th nysvi
07-08-2006, 08:15 PM
I suppose they are functional but aren't very authentic, are they?

are blanks Troy.

Or not shoving the paper down the barrel.

It's all a matter of HOW much compromise your willing to make. Not if your going to compromise.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

tompritchett
07-08-2006, 11:30 PM
Besides with all the stripes, we're running out of privates in the field. We got enough on the muster but in the field is another story.

Bill Rodman, my Bn commander, starting implementing a new policy this year that all SGTs and officers had to bring a private's jacket to all our mainstream events in case we had too many officers and NCO's to justify the number of privates. I totally support this policy and hope that other units will follow this example. We also routinely merge our individual companies to form a single, larger company to achieve a more realistic ratio. Again, I policy that I agree with and would love to see adopted more universally in the hobby. But then in the same year, I have seen Bill reenact as low as a lowly private and as high as an overall commanding general. Wish more officers in the hobby would do so 1) they would remember what is like to a just a private (e.g., would not leave the Bn at attention as they go over to chat with the general) and 2) give junior officers a chance to get experience and grow. My previous Bn commander, once he became Col, would never take the unit to any event where he could not command at least a battalion. It was almost like being a mere company commander was now beneath his dignity.

Ol'Hickory
07-09-2006, 06:57 AM
You should consider using the brown paper rolls sold at large hardware stores/outlets or painting supply stores called "painters masking paper." It comes in rolls 6 or 8 inches wide, and is almost perfect for rolling cartridges. Good color, thin, yet not too thin. And you get a true mass quantity of it for a very cheap price (IIRC, about $3 for a many yards of it). I highly recommend it.

The 8" wide roll, in fact, works very well, since most cartridges call for them being 4" wide, so two fit side by side. Very easy to cut. No more tearing paper bags apart.

Try it, you'll like it!

You can get period style candles from a hardware shop near mine, plain white scentless candles.

I remeber in gettysburg I found an eagle coat button and a bullet, In the Antietam visitor centre I saw two bullets that had hit each other..that stuck in my mind and shocked me as to how thick the lead would have been flying from both sides on that day. I found a mangled bullet near the TF but did not take that back, as I dident like it much. It was deformed and had hit something mabye a rock or a tree but it put me off and I got a sickening feeling to imagine one of those things hitting a knee or an elbow or the stomach.

It's surprising that anyone lived at all.

John1862
07-09-2006, 08:13 AM
You can get period style candles from a hardware shop near mine, plain white scentless candles.

I remeber in gettysburg I found an eagle coat button and a bullet, In the Antietam visitor centre I saw two bullets that had hit each other..that stuck in my mind and shocked me as to how thick the lead would have been flying from both sides on that day. I found a mangled bullet near the TF but did not take that back, as I dident like it much. It was deformed and had hit something mabye a rock or a tree but it put me off and I got a sickening feeling to imagine one of those things hitting a knee or an elbow or the stomach.

It's surprising that anyone lived at all.

Hmm....I sure hope you were doing that legally, on private property with permission of the owner, otherwise that constitutes a $2000 fine, or at least I know that it was $2000 in Gettysburg two years ago. Maybe I am just reading this wrong but me thinks that was not your best move...

Bill_Cross
07-09-2006, 10:32 AM
Bill Rodman, my Bn commander, starting implementing a new policy this year that all SGTs and officers had to bring a private's jacket to all our mainstream events in case we had too many officers and NCO's to justify the number of privates.
Bill's not only a friend, but a fellow RP. A good head on his shoulders, and a lot of fun in the field and not.

Bill_Cross
07-09-2006, 10:40 AM
So if you figure 4 engagements a weekend (not counting drill and picket) and average 20 rounds an engagement you're actually firing time at max fire is only about 7 minutes an engagement.
With mainstreamers driving in to camps, it would seem to me they can could off-load as many rounds as will be necessary for the weekend, but carry them authentically on your person in arnsenal packs. They're not so tricky to make that an old codger like me can't master it. And since a standard cartridge box with tins was designed for 40 rounds max, I believe carrying more (especially without tins, as some fellers do) is courting trouble. For you boys who need 100s of rounds per weekend, additional rounds can be stored in a company ammo box, as was the custom in both the mainstream unit I once belonged to, and with the Rowdy Pards when we do a LH at Gettysburg (park regs require rounds to be kept that way between demos).

Our officers almost NEVER allow individual fire. Its always volley and by Sunday afternoon a lot of those volleys are very ragged due to lack of powder.
One thing that comes up quite often in historical accounts is units being withdrawn because of a lack of ammunition or fouling of their pieces. Withdrawing a company for lack of ammunition would be historical, but would conflict with the "big numbers" event organizers expect at mainstream events.

We campaigners have to make do with what we can hump in ourselves. Usually that's 100 rounds for the weekend. In many cases, we go home with unopened arsenal packs.

Ol'Hickory
07-09-2006, 11:40 AM
Hmm....I sure hope you were doing that legally, on private property with permission of the owner, otherwise that constitutes a $2000 fine, or at least I know that it was $2000 in Gettysburg two years ago. Maybe I am just reading this wrong but me thinks that was not your best move...

Oh okay..I did however buy a cap button found at Gettysburg is that legal?

Steve (PA) made me feel guilty cuz I thought i'd take a small rounded stone from little round top (it was loose) and he said "John hes stealing artifacts!" they done it..well they done it at Antietam but not at gettysburg..*vanishes into the shadows*

tompritchett
07-09-2006, 02:56 PM
One thing that comes up quite often in historical accounts is units being withdrawn because of a lack of ammunition or fouling of their pieces. Withdrawing a company for lack of ammunition would be historical, but would conflict with the "big numbers" event organizers expect at mainstream events.


May and maybe not. I personally think that seeing the movement of units back to resupply would add to the historical accuracy of such events. I know that a Neshaminy this year our unit had to drastically reduce our rate of fire on both days because we had expended so much ammunition in the combined tactical/scripted battles (our safety SOP requires the use of tins). I suspect though that the real reason you do do see this manuever is because most battalions have not mastered enough battalion drill to make such a movement look like anything but a major charlie foxtrot.

Another action that I would like to see at events would be for file closer NCOs redistributing ammo during lulls in the battle as unit consolidate prior to further advances. One idea would be for a 2nd SGT having simulate retrieving rounds from the dead and wounded and then redistributing rounds to the ranks. Just a suggestion.

tompritchett
07-09-2006, 02:58 PM
A good head on his shoulders, and a lot of fun in the field and not.

A major reason why I decided to link up with his battalion once I left my old unit.

AZReenactor
07-10-2006, 10:39 AM
are blanks Troy.

Or not shoving the paper down the barrel.

It's all a matter of HOW much compromise your willing to make. Not if your going to compromise.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

Bob, actually there were arsenal produced blanks made during the war so it is possibly to make blank rounds in an authentic matter.

You are correct that compromises and anachronisms are sometimes necessary and inevitable in reenacting. However, the question one should ask is, not how many compromises can one make and and still claim to be portraying a Civil War soldier, but rather what compromises are genuinely necessary.

Is it any more necessary to use cartridges made from newsprint than it is to wear modern work boots, eat from blue speckle ware, use old handbags for cartridge boxes and haversacks, or carry Hawkins and Zuave rifles? Is a vendor selling cartridges made from newsprint doing any less of a disservice then a vender selling polyester uniforms? Since this thread started with a question about how to make the Springfield rifled musket paper cartridges it seemed a good idea to point out that this vendor is marketing wares that are less than authentic for those who are less knowledgeable about the hobby.

Some compromises are necessary for safety and legal issues, others are just a matter of being cheap, lazy or uninformed.

Ol'Hickory
07-10-2006, 11:00 AM
I read a diary entry in my CW source book about a Confederate Irishman who was caught up in the fighting so much he forgot to fire the gun..kept loading and loading and when he did fire 7 rounds shot out and "the curios little Irishman said well ye laffin boys theres 7 more rounds in her yit"

Bill_Cross
07-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Since this thread started with a question about how to make the Springfield rifled musket paper cartridges it seemed a good idea to point out that this vendor is marketing wares that are less than authentic for those who are less knowledgeable about the hobby.
Mike Watson @ Cartridges Unlimited sells tubes with tissue paper inserted in the bottom to make the end result look remarkably like the real thing, both in length and dimensionality. The tubes are good enough even for dummies like me, allowing you to pour in the requisite powder, fold the ends authentically, and bundle the results in arsenal packs. I use my old "paper ladies" for packing up the 12 caps that were included in arsenal packs.

There used to be plans for making a "jig" to fold paper around the resulting rounds. I prefer the rolls of brown paper made by 3M for, I believe, plasterers or wall board. It can be cut into the proper sizes easily, tied with linen twine (available easily) and made into packs that look remarkably like the real thing, which carry in your knapsack without falling apart, and make me feel that much closer to authentic.

Newspaper, grocery store bags, etc. are inauthentic and easily improved-on.

TheQM
07-10-2006, 08:16 PM
A good head on his shoulders, and a lot of fun in the field and not.

A major reason why I decided to link up with his battalion once I left my old unit.

Jeeze,

My head's going to get all swelled up! :)

Thanks for the kind words Guys,

bob 125th nysvi
07-12-2006, 07:25 PM
We campaigners have to make do with what we can hump in ourselves. Usually that's 100 rounds for the weekend. In many cases, we go home with unopened arsenal packs.

Bill I don't count myself among you elite campaigners and I don't drive into a camp. Everything I bring in I hump in (as I have pointed out in other posts).

And 100 rounds ain't prototypical about 50 was. 40 in the box and 10 in the pack, maybe 20 if they were lucky.

So I'll be a lot more impressed with you 'campaigners' when you bring in only 50 and someone in the unit with his mule humps in the rest. Which of course he got out of a 1/2 ton wagon pulled by a couple of other mules coming from the railhead not an SUV or minivan.

Its never about no compromise it's only about what compromise you'll accept.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

cblodg
07-12-2006, 08:27 PM
While at a NE event in Connecticut, Jackson's Valley Campaign, I had a very "real" experince. First I want to say that I campaigned at this event with some very fine lads, many are now pards. To take a group of guys who maybe worked with eachother for one event prior, and come out a "gelled" unit is the most rewarding thing that I could take away.

Now for the "real" experince. On saturday we had a two hour tacticle, which wiped out most of our ammo. We were able to procure some more rounds from the main camp and participate in the "battle". After this we marched out to our pickett post and gaurded for most of the night (only most as the night turned blacker than coffee, and safetty became a serious issue for our Corporals of the Gaurd). On Sunday, we had to cancel our tacticle, as we again discovered that our ammo had been seriously dwindeled due to the sat. battle (each man for that battle carried in roughly 25-30 rounds, don't want to hear about firing excessively). The amount of rounds per man on Sun. AM was between 5-10 rounds.

Because we were not stationed near the main camp this time, we had to combine all of the rounds in the company, and in return were re-issued around 14 rounds per man.

Going into a fight, knowing that you don't have much ammo, gives you a new perspective on the fight strategy itself. Certainly we were not able to keep up the fight for very long, but that was something that felt "real" to me.

Bill_Cross
07-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Bill I don't count myself among you elite campaigners.
Campaigners aren't elite, Bob. We just do it differently.

And 100 rounds ain't prototypical about 50 was.
I'd love to see some documentation for this statement.


So I'll be a lot more impressed with you 'campaigners' when you bring in only 50 and someone in the unit with his mule humps in the rest.
Actually, we had a supply train at McDowell one year (handled by the late Don Hubbard), and had the musicians humping the re-supply up the steep hillsides of Possum Holler as we fought in skirmish lines. Even Chris Piering (major of the unit) was distributing rounds as we fought off the Johnnies.

Be careful what you ask for, Bob. Campaigners can't fly, but we can do a lot of things. ;-)


Its never about no compromise it's only about what compromise you'll accept.
Couldn't have put it better myself!

Army30th
08-12-2006, 07:46 PM
I make my cartridges in two different types. One is flat on the bottom, wadding, powder, and folded.

The other is tied, wadding, powder cup, powder, and folded. Wrapped and tied in arsenal packs.

The description for Mike Watson's cartridges is the way I was making mine beginning 17 years ago.

I never take more than the 40 rounds on the field, and the cartridges look pristine and neat in the box. Any extras are with the ordanance sgt for resupply purposes.

toptimlrd
08-12-2006, 10:31 PM
Earlier in the thread someone remarked about resupplying ammo during a battle:

At several events, my unit has portrayed a resupply of ammo on the field. We go in with 40 rounds in the tins and have arsenal packs ready and turned in before battle. Once ammo starts to run low, out comes the resupply wagon and the NCOs begin distributing the ammo packs. To ensure safety, we mark the arsenal packs with our names so that we get the ammo we rolled back (no surprises for anyone that way).

Remise
08-13-2006, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=Bill_Cross]Campaigners aren't elite, Bob. We just do it differently.

I'd love to see some documentation for this statement.

QUOTE]

I am still looking, too, and I am sure I have read about men who filled their pockets with extra cartridges, or at least 20 or so, the day of a battle. But here is one that sort of agrees with you, by Howard Walthall of the 8th Georgia Infantry:

"One who has never tried it might think that there is no weight of about forty rounds of cartridges, but let them carry them a day without taking them off and they will find there is."

B.C. Milligan
Company K, First Penna. Reserves

bill watson
08-13-2006, 07:23 PM
40 rounds of cartridges weighs 2.5 pounds just for the lead. It's between a third and a half pound of powder at 60 g -- any engineers want to convert it? A bit for the caps and paper. 3 pounds?

Footslogger
08-14-2006, 02:45 PM
For your perusal two fine articles on authentic rounds.

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm and http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge2.htm

Regards

jurgitemvaletem
08-17-2006, 08:29 PM
As far as obtaining a good paper, newsprint works best. The best place to get news print is to make a trip to your local newsprinter and ask for some. Generaly, if you tell the folks at the front counter who you are and what you do, they are almost to happy to supply you at no cost with what they call drop off, ends of the roll they cant use anymore because it is too small for their machines to recognize. The average newspaper printer goes through hundreds of such rolls everyday, so whatever does not get picked up will be thrown in the trash, so go and support your need and the conservation of paper.


Thanks,
Jurgitem Valetem

marcaverill
08-17-2006, 08:47 PM
I have had good luck in the past using Doodle Pad paper which should be pretty close to news print paper. Just this year, I made the swap to 3M paper and have been quite happy with the results, and have an 18" wide roll in the closet and would guess I could get 5000 (+/-) from it. I have done both tied and crimped ends.

For the wrapping paper, I have used brown package paper (lighter duty variety), but want to look into this deeper and see what may be more accurate to use, perhaps the masking paper I already have in stock. So, I'll be starting with the Ordnance Manual sitting beside the computer for that research project.

I have read the Lazy Jacks articles mentioned earlier in the Thread and have found them quite helpful on other subjects as well.

jurgitemvaletem
08-20-2006, 08:32 PM
40 rounds of cartridges weighs 2.5 pounds just for the lead. It's between a third and a half pound of powder at 60 g -- any engineers want to convert it? A bit for the caps and paper. 3 pounds?


OK Mr. Watson,

Get ready for this, by actual measurement done by myself, not 10 minutes ago, forty rounds, tiedt tubes made of newsprint paper, tied with button cord thread, with powder cup, .58 cal lead balls, 60 g. each FFF black powder, packaged with label in computer printer paper tied with 4 oz, weight twine weighs exactly, according to my expensive atomic whatever scale, 3 lbs and 4.2783 oz.

Thanks,
Jurgitem Valetem