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Crowley_Greene	Apr-30-02, 03:48 PM (EST)
"1830's, 1840's styles?"
Since I've been exploring the civilian possibilities more this year, I have a question about the appropriateness of "past" clothing styles. I've had the experience a couple of times being told at events that my civilian garb is not 1860's correct. I was told once that a shirt I wore predated the 1860's by about 20 years, another time that a straw hat I had on was more of an 1830's or 40's style (yes, Bob Burton of Clearwater Hats told me himself that it was pre-war when he sold it to me). I'm 54 years old, which means that I would have been born around 1810, if my math is correct. My question is, might a person of my age indeed have worn clothes of some 20 or 25 years past? Even if they look more recently made, maybe my wife still made my shirts and pants the same way she learned 20 or 25 years ago. Is it always inaccurate to wear 1830's or 1840's styles in the 1860's? Or can people be too hung up by restricting themselves to 1860's styles? (In all honesty, this question is from a fellow who still wears some of the same pants to work that he got in the 1980's, and who still has polyester leisure suits hanging in his closet.) Crowley Greene "Parson" crowleygreene@hotmail.com
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Table of contents

RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, Jersey_Lightning, 08:42 AM, May-28-02, (7)
RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, VMurphy, 09:03 PM, May-02-02, (6)
RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, ElizabethClark, 10:38 AM, May-01-02, (5)
RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, PMK, 10:03 AM, May-01-02, (4)
RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, hyland, 04:30 PM, Apr-30-02, (1)
- RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, Fiddler, 10:13 PM, Apr-30-02, (2)
  - RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?, motozulli, 09:07 AM, May-01-02, (3)

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Jersey_Lightning May-28-02, 08:42 AM (EST)

7. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

Crowley, hi! In your quest for men's clothing styles, have you looked at the artwork of George Caleb Bingham? Bingham's work is a good source for late 1840s/early-mid 1850s mens wear. You would want to look for the "Political" paintings, like Stump Speaking rather than the boatsman paintings. The crowds in the poltical pictures contain folks from all socio-economic levels and may be of some help to you in creating your impression.
One enlargement of a painting online is at:
http://www.kodnergallery.com/docs/Featured/binghamstumpfs.htm

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VMurphy May-02-02, 09:03 PM (EST)

6. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

-Greetings to the Parson
Being in the same general age bracket, I agree with you that it would not be uncommon for your shirts to be made in the same fashion, by wife or seamstress, that you prefer. The trousers may have been updates, (fly instead of fall front) but the shirt style difference appeared to be less drastic.
Whenever confronted with this question, I always look back to my Grandparents...born at the end of the 19th century, they were young adults during the depression in rural Missouri. As a teenager(and even now) I thought and realize they were very, very back-hill,country! My grandfather, although he had an above average job with the Santa Fe RR, lived close to the nickel! They conserved food,clothing,etc. like there was going to be another depression the next month. As a result, I observed how conservatively they lived, even though it was the 1960's! My grandmother recyled all old clothing into quilts and comforters (I doubt they had a store bought blanket in the house).
The pattern my grandmother used for shirts looked very much like the shirts of the 19th century. Armsceye dropped off the shoulder, plain unbanded collar,full cut, full loose fit, etc. My father consistantly received one of corduroy each Christmas, all of which were half again too large! She didn't use paper patterns but cut from other clothing, and sewed on a Singer treadle that had been "electrified". She made all of their own clothing, even her undergarments. All of her "house dresses" were usually gingham. I still have 5 or 6 quilts, cut & partially completed by her, made from clothing of this family from the 1920's to 1960's ""
My grandfather often referred to his "suit of clothes" and when he "shrank" with old age, tried to give it to every young man of the next generation in the family!!"" None could appreciate GrandDad's "suite of clothes". It was from this Grandmother that I learned to crochet, quilt, make home made candies, and appreciate family history back 6 generations.
To make a long story short..as a teenager I was a bit embarrased of them, but now see them as "old fashioned/born 50 yrs two late/country people forced to move to town for employment. They are a perfect study of 19th century/early 20th ideals and lifestyle. Born of parents that were children during the civil war, they grew up with these ideals, and carried them through to the 20th c.
GEE....although you didn't ask for family history...I'm convinced that a peek into these family histories and lifestyles can give insight into the two pervious generations ""
REgards
THE MANTUA MAKER
Vivian Murphy

Top

ElizabethClark May-01-02, 10:38 AM (EST)

5. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

The thing for me is to consider how likely it is you can still get the old-fashioned style in the 1860's. Is a hatmaker going to still make something that's been out of fashion for three decades, or is he only going to make and stock things from the last 5-10 years? Or could the item really last for 3 decades?
It is my impression that the Victorian era was one that valued conformity and group standards far more than do we today. As fashions move on, there may be some lag to adopt some semblance of them (say, 5 years or so?), but eventually, a person has to move forward in fashion.
Men's things seem to evolve more slowly; the major changes would include trouser styles (front fall to fly construction), coats (variations in cut), hats, and facial hair. Of course, with facial hair, (and with women's hairstyles) the person's own sense of "what looks good on me" is going to factor in a LOT... hence, the picture of Clara Barton with "old" hair. Notice, though, her "old" hair still conforms to the prevailing norm of the day: center part, smooth top, fullness to the sides and back. So, she's not too Odd by fashion standards, just not a fashion plate. Which is fine.
With women's things, the styles available to most would reach back to the 50's, or 40's at the most. The 50's and 60's have a very similar bodice silhouette, with different sleeves. Get back further than that, and it's a different corset shape, different bodice styling, very different sleeves. And all of these things are easily updated over the course of a decade, even by a backwardly looking lady. If she sews for herself, she's going to be influenced by the "groups standard" in her community, so if she's still sticking to 1830's styles in the 1860's, she's going to be seen as (at best) eccentric, and at worst completely nuts, and suspect morally because of it.
If someone else sews her clothing, let's take a look at who that is likely to be: a daughter (who is more up on current fashions than she, and who might subtly update things, or just refuse to make "odd" things for Mom); a local seamstress, who may very well refuse to make completely outmoded things, for fear of her reputation as a dressmaker; another family friend or member, of varying levels of skill, who may find it easier to copy modern silhouettes, rather than have to recall or learn the old modes.
While not everyone should be "band boxed" for the 1860's, the pre-60's elements should be carefully chosen... the bonnet re-trimmed, collars newly made, dress trims replaced, sleeves updated, newer hats purchased (even if purchased with dismay that those good old styles are no longer valued by the hedonistic modern age), etc.
It's a question everyone must answer for themselves, based upon their own impression. For myself, I'm nearing 30, and have two children... the earliest I go back to for clothing is about 1855, the styles I had made just before I was married. These aren't "top fashion" items, either. But, I can update my bonnet cheaply, and since the dress styles have only changed sleeve-wise, it's not hard to copy a nice new sleeve for my newer dresses. After all, ingenuity doesn't cost my husband a penny! My ability to "keep pace" with some of the current fashions just shows that I can manage a home and my husband's income, and make the most of it.
Short answer: yes, some older modes are to be considered. But, just because something happened pre-61, doesn't mean it's de facto appropriate for the impression. Fun to ponder, though!
Regards,
Elizabeth Clark
Please visit our pages at http://www.elizabethstewartclark.com

Top

PMK May-01-02, 10:03 AM (EST)

4. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

Given the readily available fashion choices in this era and the tendency for people to wear what they like and feel comfortable in( your 1980 pants, a friend who still wears his double knit "leisure" suit to dress up for dances etc), I think your logic is correct.
The 1860's were not an isolated decade. Your shirt may not last 20 years, but your wife may have the same pattern she relies on to construct your shirts - 1- because you like them , 2- becasue it fits you well, 3. because she knows the pattern and can whip up several without additional work & expense of a new pattern!
I won't even go into the favorite hat scenario ! My husband has ball caps that have been around longer than we have been married !
I think you have the right idea about keeping history fluid rather than stagnant in the details!

Top

hyland Apr-30-02, 04:30 PM (EST)

1. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

I asked this same question about a year ago & really didn't get much of an answer. As a person who loves and wears vintage clothes (40s-60s), but also clothes of very classic lines that hopefully never go out of style, I can relate.
My dress is of a slightly older style, but frankly I don't have the income for a brand new dress and my nineteenth-century persona doesn't either. I update it as best I can with collar, sleeves, newish bonnet, etc.
I personally find the idea that people filled their homes with brand-spankin' new items and outfitted themselves based only on fashion magazines not credible. Lord knows I've never dressed like a Cosmo girl and flatfront pants only work for Ally McBeal.
Yes, people did remake clothes to try to match current styles, but _Who Wore What_ also has plenty of photos of women desperately clinging to the styles of their girlhood.
I really do want to hear what others have to say, but it sounds like by calculating your age and income level, you've made a good start on thinking out your persona and his lifestyle. I don't know about getting a white shirt to last 20 years though
Regards,
Deborah Hyland
dance mistress
http://www.janmarra.com/indexDeborah.htm

Top

Fiddler Apr-30-02, 10:13 PM (EST)

2. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

Of course people of older age, 40's+, could have clothing that would predate the war. Especially with the idea that at one time it was "Sunday go to Church" clothing and with time it becomes more of everyday wear. Since a great number of the people of that era did not have money to redo wardrobes regularly it would be totally feasible.

Top

motozulli May-01-02, 09:07 AM (EST)

3. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"

one must take into consideration the varying attitudes towards clothing. As my professor has said many times, nothing new was ever worn after 1940, old styles are just revived. While that may be arguable, (and the same might be said for the 19th c.) the point is, in the 20th century we are much more comfortable with wearing old styles than in any other time in recent history. You wouldn't think twice if you saw a woman walk down the road in polyester hiphuggers (which were stylish what, about 30 years ago?) but you can bet that if a woman walked down the road in 1860 wearing ballooning Leg'O'Mutton sleeves (something stylish around 1830) there would have been a to-do. My point is, you can't use the rationalization 'I wear stuff from ten years ago now, so I would have done the same then'.
That said, people simply do stick with their own styles. I was amazed to see a photo of Clara Barton c. 1910, wearing a hairstyle very much like 1840. So obviously there is no clear-cut answer. My guess is that people then kept with the general styles, but retained by a time lag (according to how old/rural/poor they were) older details.
Cordially,
Alaina

http://www.geocities.com/motozulli

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Jersey_Lightning	May-28-02, 08:42 AM (EST)
7. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
Crowley, hi! In your quest for men's clothing styles, have you looked at the artwork of George Caleb Bingham? Bingham's work is a good source for late 1840s/early-mid 1850s mens wear. You would want to look for the "Political" paintings, like Stump Speaking rather than the boatsman paintings. The crowds in the poltical pictures contain folks from all socio-economic levels and may be of some help to you in creating your impression. One enlargement of a painting online is at: http://www.kodnergallery.com/docs/Featured/binghamstumpfs.htm
	Top

VMurphy	May-02-02, 09:03 PM (EST)
6. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
-Greetings to the Parson Being in the same general age bracket, I agree with you that it would not be uncommon for your shirts to be made in the same fashion, by wife or seamstress, that you prefer. The trousers may have been updates, (fly instead of fall front) but the shirt style difference appeared to be less drastic. Whenever confronted with this question, I always look back to my Grandparents...born at the end of the 19th century, they were young adults during the depression in rural Missouri. As a teenager(and even now) I thought and realize they were very, very back-hill,country! My grandfather, although he had an above average job with the Santa Fe RR, lived close to the nickel! They conserved food,clothing,etc. like there was going to be another depression the next month. As a result, I observed how conservatively they lived, even though it was the 1960's! My grandmother recyled all old clothing into quilts and comforters (I doubt they had a store bought blanket in the house). The pattern my grandmother used for shirts looked very much like the shirts of the 19th century. Armsceye dropped off the shoulder, plain unbanded collar,full cut, full loose fit, etc. My father consistantly received one of corduroy each Christmas, all of which were half again too large! She didn't use paper patterns but cut from other clothing, and sewed on a Singer treadle that had been "electrified". She made all of their own clothing, even her undergarments. All of her "house dresses" were usually gingham. I still have 5 or 6 quilts, cut & partially completed by her, made from clothing of this family from the 1920's to 1960's "" My grandfather often referred to his "suit of clothes" and when he "shrank" with old age, tried to give it to every young man of the next generation in the family!!"" None could appreciate GrandDad's "suite of clothes". It was from this Grandmother that I learned to crochet, quilt, make home made candies, and appreciate family history back 6 generations. To make a long story short..as a teenager I was a bit embarrased of them, but now see them as "old fashioned/born 50 yrs two late/country people forced to move to town for employment. They are a perfect study of 19th century/early 20th ideals and lifestyle. Born of parents that were children during the civil war, they grew up with these ideals, and carried them through to the 20th c. GEE....although you didn't ask for family history...I'm convinced that a peek into these family histories and lifestyles can give insight into the two pervious generations "" REgards THE MANTUA MAKER Vivian Murphy
	Top

ElizabethClark	May-01-02, 10:38 AM (EST)
5. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
The thing for me is to consider how likely it is you can still get the old-fashioned style in the 1860's. Is a hatmaker going to still make something that's been out of fashion for three decades, or is he only going to make and stock things from the last 5-10 years? Or could the item really last for 3 decades? It is my impression that the Victorian era was one that valued conformity and group standards far more than do we today. As fashions move on, there may be some lag to adopt some semblance of them (say, 5 years or so?), but eventually, a person has to move forward in fashion. Men's things seem to evolve more slowly; the major changes would include trouser styles (front fall to fly construction), coats (variations in cut), hats, and facial hair. Of course, with facial hair, (and with women's hairstyles) the person's own sense of "what looks good on me" is going to factor in a LOT... hence, the picture of Clara Barton with "old" hair. Notice, though, her "old" hair still conforms to the prevailing norm of the day: center part, smooth top, fullness to the sides and back. So, she's not too Odd by fashion standards, just not a fashion plate. Which is fine. With women's things, the styles available to most would reach back to the 50's, or 40's at the most. The 50's and 60's have a very similar bodice silhouette, with different sleeves. Get back further than that, and it's a different corset shape, different bodice styling, very different sleeves. And all of these things are easily updated over the course of a decade, even by a backwardly looking lady. If she sews for herself, she's going to be influenced by the "groups standard" in her community, so if she's still sticking to 1830's styles in the 1860's, she's going to be seen as (at best) eccentric, and at worst completely nuts, and suspect morally because of it. If someone else sews her clothing, let's take a look at who that is likely to be: a daughter (who is more up on current fashions than she, and who might subtly update things, or just refuse to make "odd" things for Mom); a local seamstress, who may very well refuse to make completely outmoded things, for fear of her reputation as a dressmaker; another family friend or member, of varying levels of skill, who may find it easier to copy modern silhouettes, rather than have to recall or learn the old modes. While not everyone should be "band boxed" for the 1860's, the pre-60's elements should be carefully chosen... the bonnet re-trimmed, collars newly made, dress trims replaced, sleeves updated, newer hats purchased (even if purchased with dismay that those good old styles are no longer valued by the hedonistic modern age), etc. It's a question everyone must answer for themselves, based upon their own impression. For myself, I'm nearing 30, and have two children... the earliest I go back to for clothing is about 1855, the styles I had made just before I was married. These aren't "top fashion" items, either. But, I can update my bonnet cheaply, and since the dress styles have only changed sleeve-wise, it's not hard to copy a nice new sleeve for my newer dresses. After all, ingenuity doesn't cost my husband a penny! My ability to "keep pace" with some of the current fashions just shows that I can manage a home and my husband's income, and make the most of it. Short answer: yes, some older modes are to be considered. But, just because something happened pre-61, doesn't mean it's de facto appropriate for the impression. Fun to ponder, though! Regards, Elizabeth Clark Please visit our pages at http://www.elizabethstewartclark.com
	Top

PMK	May-01-02, 10:03 AM (EST)
4. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
Given the readily available fashion choices in this era and the tendency for people to wear what they like and feel comfortable in( your 1980 pants, a friend who still wears his double knit "leisure" suit to dress up for dances etc), I think your logic is correct. The 1860's were not an isolated decade. Your shirt may not last 20 years, but your wife may have the same pattern she relies on to construct your shirts - 1- because you like them , 2- becasue it fits you well, 3. because she knows the pattern and can whip up several without additional work & expense of a new pattern! I won't even go into the favorite hat scenario ! My husband has ball caps that have been around longer than we have been married ! I think you have the right idea about keeping history fluid rather than stagnant in the details!
	Top

hyland	Apr-30-02, 04:30 PM (EST)
1. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
I asked this same question about a year ago & really didn't get much of an answer. As a person who loves and wears vintage clothes (40s-60s), but also clothes of very classic lines that hopefully never go out of style, I can relate. My dress is of a slightly older style, but frankly I don't have the income for a brand new dress and my nineteenth-century persona doesn't either. I update it as best I can with collar, sleeves, newish bonnet, etc. I personally find the idea that people filled their homes with brand-spankin' new items and outfitted themselves based only on fashion magazines not credible. Lord knows I've never dressed like a Cosmo girl and flatfront pants only work for Ally McBeal. Yes, people did remake clothes to try to match current styles, but _Who Wore What_ also has plenty of photos of women desperately clinging to the styles of their girlhood. I really do want to hear what others have to say, but it sounds like by calculating your age and income level, you've made a good start on thinking out your persona and his lifestyle. I don't know about getting a white shirt to last 20 years though Regards, Deborah Hyland dance mistress http://www.janmarra.com/indexDeborah.htm
	Top


	Fiddler	Apr-30-02, 10:13 PM (EST)
	2. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
	Of course people of older age, 40's+, could have clothing that would predate the war. Especially with the idea that at one time it was "Sunday go to Church" clothing and with time it becomes more of everyday wear. Since a great number of the people of that era did not have money to redo wardrobes regularly it would be totally feasible.
		Top


	motozulli	May-01-02, 09:07 AM (EST)
	3. "RE: 1830's, 1840's styles?"
	one must take into consideration the varying attitudes towards clothing. As my professor has said many times, nothing new was ever worn after 1940, old styles are just revived. While that may be arguable, (and the same might be said for the 19th c.) the point is, in the 20th century we are much more comfortable with wearing old styles than in any other time in recent history. You wouldn't think twice if you saw a woman walk down the road in polyester hiphuggers (which were stylish what, about 30 years ago?) but you can bet that if a woman walked down the road in 1860 wearing ballooning Leg'O'Mutton sleeves (something stylish around 1830) there would have been a to-do. My point is, you can't use the rationalization 'I wear stuff from ten years ago now, so I would have done the same then'. That said, people simply do stick with their own styles. I was amazed to see a photo of Clara Barton c. 1910, wearing a hairstyle very much like 1840. So obviously there is no clear-cut answer. My guess is that people then kept with the general styles, but retained by a time lag (according to how old/rural/poor they were) older details. Cordially, Alaina http://www.geocities.com/motozulli
		Top

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